36 Responses to “Some Sudanese want British teacher dead”

1. 1 Joe Amschlinger on November 30th, 2007 11:16 am

   CNN reports 600, FoxNews reports thousands… Death for a teddy bear? Liberals who are afraid of GW, Right Wingers and Christian Evangelicals better wake up to the fact that Militant Islam would execute them for what they beleive.

2. 2 Keith on November 30th, 2007 1:09 pm

   Remember the post I wrote yesterday about the wingnuts would use this incident to paint ALL of Islam in this fashion? See Joe above.

   You want a World War with Islam? The West will probably win and inherit a smoking, radioactive ruin of a planet.

   And I have no doubt in my mind that Christian Dominionists, if they also had unlimited power, would also execute heathens. Two sides of the same coin ultimately.

   Blessed be, y’all. And peace on earth

3. 3 Craig on November 30th, 2007 1:25 pm

   No president in history has put pur country in greater peril than GWB. What this incident demonstrates most clearly is that religious leaders of any denomination should never be able to arrest and punish citizens for breaking their religious laws. Christian evangelical leaders would be no less forgiving of transgressions if they were in charge. How many of them spouted the nonsense that Katrina victims got what they deserved?
   Pat Robertson called on God to forsake Dover, Delaware because they removed school board members who supported the teaching of “intelligent design” in science curricula. What would he have done if had the authority to arrest and punish the voters who did that?

4. 4 Joe Amschlinger on November 30th, 2007 2:45 pm

   Keith,

   I did not paint all of Islam this way, the very vocal and murderous minority of Muslim extremists have done a fine job of that. Keith, your sensisitivity and compassion towards tyranny, although touching, is not the answer. I and my fellow wingnuts would be the ones to speak up against these fascits and want to protect the many liberal Muslims who love this country, freedom and liberty, and who would be killed by extremists like the Sudanese for being too Western.

   As for Craig and Keith saving us from religious tyranny and certain death, I certainly can point to some fine secular leaderhship ala Mao, Stalin, Hitler, etc. Left wing extremism leads to totalitarianism just as easily as Right wing extremism does.

   Oh Keith, do you have any compassion in your heart for those murdered via genocide (many innocent black Christians) in the Darfur (Sudan) genocide? No, you are more worried about Christians picketing an abortion clinic, I am sure.

5. 5 Joe Amschlinger on November 30th, 2007 2:50 pm

   Craig,

   I can give you a Prez. who has put the U.S. in more peril that GW, “Wild” Bill Clinton, who decimated our intelligence community and slashed military budgets to get his balanced budgets. A strong intelligence organization is important to prevent the wars that Liberals decry. Were you as outraged over Kosovo? No, because you are blinded by your hatred of Bush. Billy on the other hand walked on water.

6. 6 Keith on November 30th, 2007 5:28 pm

   Please Joe keep posting here. I have my reasons.

   One genocide excuses another? I don’t think so. By the way, why didn’t this benevolent democracy lift a finger to do anything about the slaughter in the Sudan? Could it be because (1) there’s no oil worth taking and (2) the players don’t look like us?

   By the way, I detested Clinton (both of them) and deplored the entire Balkans fiasco. I would heartily agree that the fascism of the left is no better than that of the right. I wouldn’t vote for Hillary if you put a gun to my head. But not Guiliani either.

   See I’m a funny liberal that way. I’m leaning toward Ron Paul and I’d stand beside anyone defending the Second Amendment. I bet that surprises you.

   I’m full of contradictions.

7. 7 Joe Amschlinger on November 30th, 2007 5:49 pm

   Oh, I enjoy the JMZ’s blog, and the debate here. I will keep posting. I don’t take this personal, and don’t intend my posts to be personal (even though that is hard because the net makes it too easy to get personal.

   I don’t see Iraq as a genocide, but feel that revolution really should begin with the people and it should have begun with Bush I, who told the Kurds to rised up and then didn’t help them. I blame Bush I for us being here.

   I think we should step in as the US to stop genocide, but there comes a point where we have to be willing to pay $$ for that. I would rather defend life and liberty than social programs or African AIDS initiatives where God only knows where the money actually goes.

   I am a Romney man myself. I like governor’s for Prez and I like politicians who have not spent their whole life in office. I think how he pulled the Salt Lake Olympics out of the toilet was amazing.

   I like some of Ron Paul’s ideas. I consider myself a Fiscal Conservative, and often want the government just to stay out of people’s lives. I fear Paul wanting to destroy the CIA, because as I posted above, I feel that top-notch intelligence and tactical military missions can prevent war.

   Best, Joe

8. 8 Keith on November 30th, 2007 6:14 pm

   Joe:

   I take back my snark. I think we can learn from each other on forums like this one. We can agree to disagree.

   Might surprise you I used to be a YR and a GOP district chair! I know, it surprises me too. I can’t say I’m happy with the Democratic party on many things but I think I’ve settled pretty well into a progressive worldview.

   I don’t think Paul would “scatter the CIA to the winds” as JFK was alluded to have said but I do strongly feel that the agency needs to be brought more fully under the oversight of, perhaps, an independent commission that publicly reports to Congress. The Church Committee started with the best of intentions but did, in many ways, ultimately hamstring the CIA. I agree we need good intelligence at all times. As a former Reservist Intel soldier who read a great deal of (lightly) classified material, we could avoid many of the mistakes we have made with better intel. For instance, anyone who bothered to read the CIA’s own country study of Iraq could have predicted pretty much every single thing that has happened since our invasion. So I have no problem with intelligence gathering (as long as we act on it and not dismiss it when it doesn’t tell us what we want to hear like Rumsfeld). I have problems with rogue operations outside the purview of Congress and the President (any President) using the agency as a private arm of clandestine operations.

   Agree with you on Bush I and Iraq. The issue with the Kurds hasn’t even begun to play out and when it does it will present this administration (and the one that follows it) with a set of limited options, none of which are good.

   I’d like to see the government more out of my life and more into the lives of corporate CEOs. Which is something I’m sure we’ll disagree on.

9. 9 Craig on November 30th, 2007 10:12 pm

   Joe,

   Bill Clinton was the finest Republican president we had before GWB came to town. Clinton doesn’t disagree with any of Bush’s policies, just his total incompetence in trying to accomplish them. Mitt Romney will have to spend lots more money to escape his policy decisions as governor of a blue state.

10. 10 Jill Miller Zimon on November 30th, 2007 11:15 pm

    Joe – Thanks for the liking the blog, or at least admitting to it. But I’m actually far happier if you like the debate.

    I’m loving reading everyone’s comments – I think I get the most out of it! Ooo- something else to feel guilty about.

11. 11 NixGuy.com » Bloodthirsty Savages on November 30th, 2007 11:33 pm

    [...] issue crosses ideological lines.  Easily. Filed under: Religion by — Dave @ 9:55 [...]

12. 12 Jason Sonenshein on December 1st, 2007 12:39 am

    “Liberals who are afraid of GW, Right Wingers and Christian Evangelicals better wake up to the fact that Militant Islam would execute them for what they beleive.”

    Sure, Mr. Amschlinger, the militant Islamists who are persecuting Ms. Gibbons are evil, no question about it. However, it was the Christian right, not militant islamists, who pushed Senate Bill 16 through the Ohio General Assembly. The Christian right, not militant Islamists, pushed the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act through Congress.

    The Christian right exercises real power within my state and federal governments. Militant Islamists don’t. For that reason, the Christian right poses a greater and more immediate threat to my liberty than militant Islam does.

13. 13 Jill Miller Zimon on December 1st, 2007 12:51 am

    Jason – I really like the idea behind what you’ve written in that last paragraph – it crystallizes for me something I haven’t been able to describe, whenever I wonder to myself, why are some people so darn angry, aggressive, fearful and convinced of how doomed we are by the presence of Muslims, perhaps specifically whomever some people consider to be “militant Muslims” when, yes, there are threats to our liberty all the time, everyday, by far more populous groups in far more visible (and not so visible) power positions.

    I wouldn’t go so far as to say that I believe that the Christian right – whomever that really is – poses a greater and more immediate threat, but the platform they pursue and the vigor with which they pursue it and the one-sidedness to how I feel they argue their positions certainly feels far more immediate than anything I’ve ever felt from Islam.

    Very interesting – thanks for the comment.

14. 14 Craig on December 1st, 2007 11:09 am

    But Jason, haven’t you heard? Obama is a Muslim! When he is elected, he will make Islam our national religion and impose Sharia law on all of us! And he’ll do it all under the secrecy of executive privilege.

15. 15 Jill Miller Zimon on December 1st, 2007 11:11 am

    Craig – now you are just being cheeky, aren’t you?

16. 16 Keith on December 1st, 2007 11:40 am

    I think Craig might have read this:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/did-you-know-that-senator_b_74710.html

    Well I suppose when Muslim pressure groups start ramming legislation through the General Assembly we can say they’ve achieved parity with the religious right.

17. 17 Jill Miller Zimon on December 1st, 2007 12:34 pm

    Ah – I missed all that. Still – Craig – were you being cheeky, or do you really think that?

18. 18 Jason Sonenshein on December 1st, 2007 5:44 pm

    “…I really like the idea behind what you’ve written in that last paragraph…”

    Thanks, Jill!

    “…why are some people so darn angry, aggressive, fearful and convinced of how doomed we are by the presence of Muslims…”

    My guess would be that it has to do with folks on the right using the enemy du jour to distract us from more immediate threats to liberty from here at home. Now it’s “militant Islam.” 50 years ago it was “Asiatic Russians.”

    I guess that’s why Ms. Gibbons’ case seems to be getting more attention in the American media than the case of Gerhard Haderer did a couple of years ago.

    “I wouldn’t go so far as to say that I believe that the Christian right – whomever that really is…”

    I’m using it to mean those who, like Phil Burress and Gregory J. Hogan, would use the government to force the rest of us to follow their interpretation of the rules of Christianity.

    “ – poses a greater and more immediate threat…”

    To clarify, I meant that the threat to my liberty, as an Ohioan and an American, comes more from Christianists than from Islamists.

19. 19 Jill Miller Zimon on December 1st, 2007 9:56 pm

    I can see the logic in what you’re saying but I actually think that some folks actually believe that they are actually afraid and that there is actually something to be actually afraid of.

    See – it’s this groundswell and use of fear to intimidate – subtly, not so subtly-maybe not even intentionally, that angers and, frankly, frightens me. That humans can do that to one another – to me, that is just plain wrong – to scare people when there may very well be nothing to be frightened of except the fear itself.

    I’m not saying that’s the case – but I detest the misuse of fear.

20. 20 Craig on December 1st, 2007 10:07 pm

    Jill,

    Just being cheeky!
    It’s just humourous to me that the wingnuts are trying to paint Dems as being more sympathetic to muslims than Republicans. The religious right is scarily similar to Islamic extremists regarding their intolerance to other religions and their repression of women. Ann Coulter even said that taking away women’s right to vote would ensure the US would never have a Dem prez, thereby making our country stronger.

21. 21 Jill Miller Zimon on December 1st, 2007 10:26 pm

    I did not mean cheeky as an insult. I just think that, I don’t know how to say this in writing because it loses it’s nuance, but we get so crazy with our insinuations of what we should fear and what could be true – it just gets ridiculous.

    Anyway – did you hear about the WaPo cartoon by its Pulitzer Prize winner – Tom Toles? He totally skewers the WaPo article that asserts the rumor in the first place.

22. 22 Craig on December 2nd, 2007 10:30 am

    JMZ,

    I didn’t think you were being insulting. It seems you are right about the whole nuance thing.

    The WaPo is extremely schizophrenic these days. Sometimes it seems the editors don’t read their own paper.
    The politics of fear have really brought this country to the brink. It is frustrating that this congress is basically allowing Bush to remain in power and continue his policies just so they can ensure they will win big in 2008.

23. 23 Joe Amschlinger on December 2nd, 2007 2:10 pm

    Gang, I have not left you, but if you miss a day or two of WLST, you certainly miss a lot. I will definatley keep posting here and try to shake things up. I would argue that Right Wing Evangelicals are not as dangerous to us as much as the Extremist branch of Islam because of the stakes (life and death). I hope that you don’t paint me as anti-Muslim, because I am not, and want my Muslim brothers and sisters to enjoy the freedom and liberty of America too. I am sure we will all be discussing and arguing this here for years to come.

    Best, Joe

24. 24 Jill Miller Zimon on December 2nd, 2007 3:29 pm

    Craig – interesting what you say about WaPo. I wonder that about many newspapers, their mental health so to speak. If we did a mental status exam on the newspaper industry, just from interacting with their sites, their papers and their people, we’d get a very interesting MSE for sure.

25. 25 Jill Miller Zimon on December 2nd, 2007 3:36 pm

    Joe – I appreciate your comments – I know you know that.

    So let me ask you, with respect: why do you say you fear one group less than another? Why do you compare at all? And I don’t really mean just you – I see this kind of treatment often and yet I don’t think I often think in those terms – that is, “Well, the so and so’s are far scarier than the so and so’s and that group is more trustworthy than that one.”

    I mean, there’s something that feels or sounds very targeted in a way that I don’t like – I’m not really sure why. As though we’re looking, trying to find culprits of our fears or something.

    I wish I could be more clear! Sorry.

    Do you kind of get what I’m getting at?

26. 26 Joe Amschlinger on December 2nd, 2007 10:06 pm

    Jill,

    I think I get what you are saying. I would fear Islamic Extremism more than fringe Evangelism because of 9/11. The amount of devastation that is caused by killing and terrorism is more dangerous than the rhetoric of fringe Evangelical groups ( I admit that there have been abortion doctors murdered by fringe whackos, but nowhere on the scale of terrorist murders). It is one thing to say that “God will punish you for your wicked ways” and it is another to say “I will destroy the state of Israel” like the Prez of Iran, or the actual 9/11 attacks were thousands were killed. I know many of my liberal friends and my friends supporting Ron Paul would argue that the U.S. is just as bad for killing in Iraq. I would propose that there is a major difference. Bin Laden and his crew were killing to incite terror and to scare people into succumbing to them. We are in Iraq to install Democracy (yes, Halliburton has made money and I admit that the contracts are absurd to a degree, but that is also a part of the game, there is no perfection) which gives people the power and which will hopefully lay the groundwork for peace or at least a Democratic Islamic state. I don’t think we can eliminate terrorism, but I think we can do something to suppress state sponsorship of it. I am not pie in the sky, but I think there is pragmatism in our approach to Iraq.

    If I did not answer your question sorry, but I will be around.

    Joe

27. 27 Jason Sonenshein on December 2nd, 2007 11:24 pm

    “The amount of devastation that is caused by killing and terrorism is more dangerous than the rhetoric of fringe Evangelical groups”

    It’s not just rhetoric. It’s force. The religious right* uses the force of government to oppress Americans. Here in Ohio, it’s now possible to go to jail for a month merely for shaking hands with an exotic dancer. In Clermont County, where I grew up, the folks who ran the Video Barn were hauled into court on charges of obscenity, a 5th degree felony, every few years.

    “It is one thing to say that ‘God will punish you for your wicked ways’…”

    Would that it were so. I’d have no problem with these Jesus freaks if they merely called upon God to punish those with whom they disagree. But they don’t stop with God. They also call on the state to punish those with whom they disagree. And unlike God, the state actually complies with their demands.

    “I would argue that Right Wing Evangelicals are not as dangerous to us as much as the Extremist branch of Islam because of the stakes (life and death).”

    Mr. Amschlinger, you have a valid point here. However, it’s important to remember that life and death are also at stake when it comes to enforcing the silly, puritanical, and often religiously motivated laws that create consensual crimes. When the state criminalizes a consensual act, it threatens deadly force against those who engage in that act. For an example, see what the Commonwealth of Virginia did to Sal Culosi. Mr. Culosi is just one example of hundreds of victims of the force that government exerts to persecute consensual criminals. For more examples, see this map from the Cato Institute.

    *Yes, I know, not all evangelical Christians seek to use government to force the rest of us to follow their rules, and not all proponents of laws against consensual crimes are motivated by religion. And yes, the secular busybodies who would tell the rest of us how to live are just as bad as the religious ones.

28. 28 Jill Miller Zimon on December 4th, 2007 11:18 am

    Joe – I guess part of my concern or how I read what you write (and again, not just you but others) when the “fear” thing is used is that I don’t remember hearing or being taught to evaluate people or groups in terms of fear. The way that “Fear” is being used now, as a way to compare groups and people – this building up of anxiety rather than doing factual risk assessments to determine what’s really going on, is very very worrisome to me – and very planned in an agenda-driven way.

    That’s how I see it.

    I understand what you say about 9/11 – that changed things in this regard, perhaps.

    But did it have to?

    Fear is powerful – we need it to survive. But are we abusing it?

29. 29 Jill Miller Zimon on December 4th, 2007 11:22 am

    Thanks, Jason. I always feel like I’ve accomplished something when you take the time to comment – mostly because you offer as different perspectives as everyone else.

    Thanks everyone here – really good debate.

30. 30 The Fear Creation Business | Writes Like She Talks on December 4th, 2007 2:04 pm

    [...] wrote this comment earlier today: The way that “Fear” is being used now, as a way to compare groups and people – this building [...]

31. 31 Joe Amschlinger on December 4th, 2007 2:50 pm

    Jill,

    I appreciate your point of view and your concern about fear being abused. This of course will be an issue that will be debated and reevaluated for years to come, which it should be.

    Best, Joe

32. 32 Jill Miller Zimon on December 4th, 2007 2:53 pm

    That’s so diplomatic!!

    But thanks. I hear you between the lines. Just something to keep in check, all I’m saying – thanks.

33. 33 Joe Amschlinger on December 4th, 2007 4:21 pm

    We conservatives try diplomacy now and then you know. This was a fun thread and had a lot of good posts. Don’t worry I will stir up some more trouble with future posts. Cheers, Joe

34. 34 Jason Sonenshein on December 9th, 2007 2:10 pm

    “I always feel like I’ve accomplished something when you take the time to comment…”

    Thanks, Jill, but I hope that doesn’t mean that you don’t feel like you’ve accomplished something when I don’t take the time to comment.

    “…mostly because you offer as different perspectives as everyone else.”

    That looks like a tactful way of saying that nobody brings the crazy quite as I do. (:

35. 35 Jill Miller Zimon on December 9th, 2007 4:49 pm

    Not at all! It was a tactful way of saying that you fit right in with all the readers who bring int he crazy. – that’s that “as different as everyone else” – not MORE different.

    Wasn’t the best sentence – part of the problem when you write like you talk.

36. 36 John McCain tells press in Israel that Purim is Jewish Halloween, Lieberman corrects him, again | Writes Like She Talks on March 21st, 2008 7:42 pm

    [...] the British teacher in Sudan who was jailed for letting the kids name a teddy bear Mohammed? When it was obviously a simple cultural mistake? [...]

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