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May
15
I just can’t support a group that, according the Political Punch,
stands ready to boycott the Democratic Party if Clinton doesn’t win the nomination, and will work against superdelegates who support Obama over Clinton as a means of registering their displeasure with the party.
“We have a plan to campaign against the Democratic nominee,” the group said in a press release Thursday. “We have the (wo)manpower and the money to make our threat real. And there are millions of supporters who will back us up in the swing states. If you don’t listen to our voice now, you will hear from us later.”
And all the momentum for that group seems to be driven from Columbus, Ohio. Lucky us.
I’m all for expression, first amendment, free speech, assembly and so on. I’m even for letting people know how angry you are about something, over and over and over. And sure, sometimes, you just take the hard line, no matter how it might seem to others.
I imagine that that’s how the folks who appear to support this effort feel.
I don’t feel the same way. I know I don’t feel like sacrificing a Democratic president for the sexism that’s existed for centuries and no doubt isn’t going to disappear in the next seven months. But I am willing to push for other promises of efforts to battle sexism.
I know what it feels like to be pushed to an extreme stance. And I would say that it’s up to those of us – all of us – who don’t want to make that sacrifice out of a Democratic presidential win to find a way to address the same concerns that have these folks organizing.
More feedback:
Donna Darko with email contacts and Washington Post coverage (mentions a YouTube of a group member being on Fox but I couldn’t locate it)
Virginia at Katalusis is following the events and has a link to a story by Catherine Candisky of the Columbus Dispatch
From the Dispatch:
Democratic observers say passions are high as the nominating contests come to a close and the party is poised to have either the first female or first black presidential nominee.
“It’s great to be making history, but somebody is going to lose and their supporters are going to be disappointed and have legitimate complaints,” said Greg Haas, a Columbus-based Democratic consultant.
“For ranks to close, the party is going to have to take seriously the concerns raised by the losing candidate because there are legitimate issues. If those are dismissed, then there will be a problem uniting.”
Jim Ruvolo, former Ohio Democratic Party chairman, said that by November most Clinton and Obama supporters will be united.
“Most Democrats and independents want to deny George Bush a third term, and that will unite us,” Ruvolo said. “I think at the end of the day this election will be about a new direction for the country.”
I suggest Haas and Ruvolo make their plans for getting to that united place known ASAP.
By Jill Miller Zimon at 10:22 pm May 15th, 2008 in Barack Obama, Campaigning, Elections, Gender, Ohio, Politics, Social Issues, Voting, Women
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She will be on O’Reilly tonight at 10 Central 11 Eastern.
i’ve got video of their appearance on O’Reilly here.
Thanks, Donna – sorry about your comment – it got stuck in the spam catcher, not unlike a lot of “good” comments lately. I apologize. Thanks for following the Clinton supporters’ efforts. I can understand how they feel, but as I wrote, I can’t support ALL their tactics or logic, though I do ache for the Obama campaign to acknowledge what is boiling over.
Before everyone starts attacking the Clinton supporters let’s not forget that several black politicians have stated on National TV that they would basically hold the black vote hostage if Hillary is elected.
Where was the uproar then?
Some of the passion/anger you find towards the Obama group has been due to the blatant DOUBLE STANDARD and unfairness towards Hillary Clinton.
Obama, the DNC, Pelosi, Ted Kennedy and the Elite are responsible for the revolt that is going to happen in the near future if they keep treating Hillary and her supporters like crap.
The only way to resolve this situation is to let the contest go to the convention and let the Delegates decide who the true Democratic Nominee will be.
After all each candidate needs to reach 2209 …if they don’t the rules state that the contest shall be taken to the convention for the delegates to decide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcdnlNZg2iM&feature=PlayList&p=F8BDC1EB1E9792B2&index=5
Here are only SOME of the examples that Hillary supporters are furious over. She has been hijacked by sexism so blatant and so APPROVED of and so exploited by Obama for his own gain that we cannot vote for him. Using “99 Problems” as a “victory” song in Iowa, the Hillary nutcrackers all while he sat silent and participated. NO. Too little, too late to make nice now.
It’s a PROTEST vote against him for obvious reasons and because our own party threw us under a bus. No thanks Obama. Not now, not ever.
Life long, college educated dem who Obama will not need in November.
Make case for hillary. Media especially MSNBC has treated her unfairly. I am with you.
I agree that the backlash was to be predicted by the treatment Sen. Clinton received at the hands of the media and the Dem. Party leaders. There was never any outrage voiced over the manner in which she has been treated. The disrespect so many Obama supporters showed her, as well as his own, put me off. He never said anything or asked any of them publicly to stop their offensive comments. He showed her no respect, so I feel no reason to show him any–and I was a woman long before I was a Democrat!
I’m going to kill myself today due to head wounds from beating my head on my desk. So many others commenting around the sphere this morning don’t seem to get it. Women are the largest voting bloc. They are the backbone of the party. Yet some of these folks act like this is all about HRC when it’s not even about her at all. It’s about year after year after year going by with little (if anything) to show for it. Why do we need groups like EMILY’s List, White House Project, etc if the need doesn’t exist?
Jill, you’re looking for solutions? Here’s mine. It’ll piss everyone off, but too freaking bad. We’re all in this mess together, so we’ll need to get out of it together.
First, Hillary and Obama need to be on the same ticket. They hate each other? Tough. Deal with it. They are grown adults with big brains and lots to offer this country. Suck it up and run together.
Second, make a firm commitment to each other to AGGRESSIVELY recruit WOMEN, AFRICAN AMERICANS, HISPANIC AMERICANS, and ASIAN AMERICANS (especially women of those cultural groups) to run for office – from dog catcher to U.S. Senate. Set real benchmarks to add more right away. (Something like 3 female U.S. Senators next cycle)
Third, implore Howard Dean to make the 50 State Strategy include a plan to promote female and minority candidates – again, with benchmarks (not quotas, but smart goals to get us where our elected officials resemble the people they serve).
Fourth, consider naming a team of 5-7 men and women who would probably be cabinet members. Don’t call them cabinet picks. Call it a “leadership team”‘ or something like that. Let them be the TOP surrogates and pick each one with a specific focus. John Edwards, Bill Richardson, Evan Bayh, Kathleen Sebellius, Jennifer Granholm, Janet Napolitano, Stephanie Tubbs Jones, Al Gore, etc. The focus they have would reflect their background and their ability to speak to a bloc of voters. Edwards, for example could talk law and rural voters. Richardson could handle foreign policy and court hispanic/latino voters and so on. By not naming them as your cabinet, you avoid the campaign centering on them individually (which risks getting you off message), but you show the country that you’ve got a smart, diverse team advising you and you look ready to lead out of the blocks. Plus, this acts as a vetting process well ahead of time. AND you expose new talent to a wider audience. This helps bring new blood into the party.
Finally, everyone sends $100 in the first 24 hours and we spend that money by making McCain the worst performing general election candidate in GOP history.
You wrote,
“I know I don’t feel like sacrificing a Democratic president for the sexism that’s existed for centuries and no doubt isn’t going to disappear in the next seven months.”
My response:
How are people ever going to stop being sexist and miogynist if they are allowed to get away with it? There is a reason sexism has existed for not hundreds but thousands of years. It’s because it’s been allowed to exist. Allowing it to go one for a minute, an hour, a day, a week, a month, a year without response without punishment is what has turned it into thousands of years of sexism.
If you vote for a party and a man that has called the most respected, intelligent and accomplished woman in US political history untrustworthy, liar, monster, gave her the finger, brushed her off his shoulders and condoned “journalists” and talking heads saying that she should be taken in a back room and killed, you are the reason sexism exists.
You are nice to worry about sacrificing the possibility of a Democratic President. Too bad Obama and his people didn’t care about sacrificing your dignity as a human being.
If Obama becomes President, he will not be my president. He will be the president of the people in this country who don’t love and respect women.
[...] Writes Like She Talks [...]
So instead you are going to vote for the guy who divorced his old wife so he could marry a younger, richer woman?
You are going to vote for a guy who wants to take away reproductive rights from women?
Anne Marie –
A few thoughts:
1. You wrote, “If you vote for a party and a man that has called the most respected, intelligent and accomplished woman in US political history untrustworthy, liar, monster, gave her the finger, brushed her off his shoulders and condoned “journalists” and talking heads saying that she should be taken in a back room and killed, you are the reason sexism exists.”
Are you arguing that McCain and the GOP has treated Hillary and/or women better?
2. You wrote this: “Allowing it to go one for a minute, an hour, a day, a week, a month, a year without response without punishment is what has turned it into thousands of years of sexism.”
Is punishment what you are after? If yes, who is that you want to punish? And if you say Obama, well, how is punishing him going to help eradicate sexism? I see a total disconnect there, but I’m also not usually interested in punishment (including right now in regard to this issue).
3. You wrote, “You are nice to worry about sacrificing the possibility of a Democratic President. Too bad Obama and his people didn’t care about sacrificing your dignity as a human being.”
I’m not being nice at all, promise. But in this comment, you are targeting Obama and “his people” – I thought Clinton Supporters Count Too is unhappy with the DNC and democratic leadership?
Jill, please see my responses below yours.
Anne Marie –
A few thoughts:
1. You wrote, “If you vote for a party and a man that has called the most respected, intelligent and accomplished woman in US political history untrustworthy, liar, monster, gave her the finger, brushed her off his shoulders and condoned “journalists” and talking heads saying that she should be taken in a back room and killed, you are the reason sexism exists.”
Are you arguing that McCain and the GOP has treated Hillary and/or women better?
**I am not arguing it. I see the difference with my own eyes. McCain is a good friend of Hillary’s and he has never nor do I believe will he ever disrespect her the way Obama and the DNC has. Of course neither parties are perfect, but the fact is that the DNC has acted on their sexism and favoritism in an organized way, against the most accomplished female politician in US History. The GOP has not done that. Maybe they would too if given the chance, but so far they have not, and if they have any sense, they will learn from this episode and never will****.
2. You wrote this: “Allowing it to go one for a minute, an hour, a day, a week, a month, a year without response without punishment is what has turned it into thousands of years of sexism.”
Is punishment what you are after?
***I am after living in a world where men and women are seen as equals and do not demonize each other based on gender. Humans are animals. They learn through reward and punishment. If you reward good behavior, they repeat it to keep getting reward. If you reward bad behavior (as in with a vote) then they will continue to repeat it. If a human animal suffers after doing something bad, usually if they are smart, they will avoid doing it because they don’t want pain.***
If yes, who is that you want to punish?
***I want to send a clear message to the leaders of the DNC, to the men of the Democratic Party, to all people in the UNITED STATES, that one does not win when one treats good women like garbage.***
And if you say Obama, well, how is punishing him going to help eradicate sexism?
***See my explanation above about how animals learn. If Obama and anyone else who participated in this woman bashing campaign see that you cannot win by being or condoning hate against women, then they are less likely to try it agin.***
I see a total disconnect there, but I’m also not usually interested in punishment (including right now in regard to this issue).
***I hope my comments have helped you connect to what I am saying. No one is interested in punishment but it’s necessary. If you are not interested in punishment, does this mean that if a female friend or relative is sexually harrased at work, you are not interested in there being a way for the offender to be disciplined so that they stop what they are doing? And how do people get disciplined? Usually through rewards or threats to take something away that they value.
3. You wrote, “You are nice to worry about sacrificing the possibility of a Democratic President. Too bad Obama and his people didn’t care about sacrificing your dignity as a human being.”
I’m not being nice at all, promise. But in this comment, you are targeting Obama and “his people” – I thought Clinton Supporters Count Too is unhappy with the DNC and democratic leadership?
***I am not part of Clinton Supporters Count Too, and so I only represent my own views through what I have written. I agree with them for sure. I don’t target, I’m not a sniper. The only power I have is my vote, and possibly the power of organizing those who feel as I do. I want Obama,those supporters who have engaged in hateful bashing of women, the DNC leaders who have tried to abort Hillary for months, prematurely, the media and all people who have publicly derided and insulted Hillary, her supporters and all women everywhere to see that hating women will not be rewarded.
Joseph, please see my responses below:
So instead you are going to vote for the guy who divorced his old wife so he could marry a younger, richer woman?
***I hope to vote for Hillary Clinton in November. I will not vote for Obama. I do not know why McCain divorced his “old” wife. You say it is because he wanted to marry a younger, richer woman. Okay, fine. There are plenty of women who divorce their husbands to marry richer men. There are many reasons that happens. Part of it has to do with the reproductive instinct. Fact is we don’t know why McCain really divorced his first wife, and it’s none of our business. If you had told me that he abused his wife, that would be something. You know what? McCain is man enough to marry a woman who has more money than him and not let it bother him. That’s actually a plus for him.***
You are going to vote for a guy who wants to take away reproductive rights from women?
***I hope to vote for Hillary. I want reproductive rights for women, but I also want respect for women. I used to volunteer for Mass. NARAL so I care very much about that issue. I come from a country where that right was missing so I know what it means to not have the right. But that country also didn’t have access to any methods of contraception. I have faith that if we live in a country where women are valued and respected, we will continue to have reproductive rights. I think that rewarding the Democrats with a win for Obama after the woman hate that has surfaced in this campaign, this will do more to erode the rights and esteem of women long term then voting for John McCain.
If the Republicans prove to be as misogynistic as the Democrats in power have been, then it will be time to work towards a new party if I continue to care about politics at all. ***
Thanks for your time.
“If the Republicans prove to be as misogynistic as the Democrats in power”???
Not choosing Hillary does NOT make someone a misogynist. Just like not supporting Obama does not make a person a racist.
However, old men who try to take away reproductive rights from women ARE misogynists.
John McCain falls into the second category.
Joseph:
Check out: http://wilknetwork.com/ Steven Corbett Radio Show.
Please see my responses below:
“If the Republicans prove to be as misogynistic as the Democrats in power”???
Not choosing Hillary does NOT make someone a misogynist. Just like not supporting Obama does not make a person a racist.
*** I agree. But listen. I never said this is about who people voted for. For me this is about the tone and the hateful things SAID about Hillary by Democrats including Obama during this campaign. The Republicans have never had the opportunity to deal with a serious female presidential candidate for President. They haven’t screwed it up, and hopefully they’ll learn to never screw it up when it’s their turn. The Democrats screwed up this amazing opportunity big time. This Democratic primary has not just been about blacks. It’s been about women. And the Democrats chose Blacks and kicked women to the curb.***
However, old men who try to take away reproductive rights from women ARE misogynists.
*** Believing that it is wrong to abort a fetus is seperate from hating women. It’s closer to valuing the importance of human life. This is a complicated issue, it’s not black and white. I looked up McCain’s position on this issue, and that’s not black and white either. He believes in exceptions for rape, incest and welfare of pregnant woman. ***
John McCain falls into the second category.
Could you please provide some examples of the “hateful things SAID about Hillary” that were misogynistic?
If you can provide three solid examples then I’ll not only agree with you- but I’ll also post about it on Plunderbund.
Keep in mind…
mi·sog·y·ny: hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.
Joseph, you don’t have to remind me what misogyny is. You’re the one apparently having trouble seeing it, not me.
I don’t know what kind of scientific proof you’re looking for, but here, read this, and if you don’t believe it, there’s little else I can add to it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/14/AR2008051403090.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2004041541_hillaryslurs29.html
From: http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/011889.php
Carl Bernstein’s disgust at Hillary’s “thick ankles.” Hillary-hating 527 group, “Citizens United Not Timid” (What’s the acronym? Ding Ding Ding).
Goodbye to the HRC nutcracker with metal spikes between splayed thighs. If it was a tap-dancing blackface doll, we would be righteously outraged—and they would not be selling it in airports. Shame.
Goodbye to the most intimately violent T-shirts in election history, including one with the murderous slogan “If Only Hillary had married O.J. Instead!” Shame.
Goodbye to Comedy Central’s “Southpark” featuring a storyline in which terrorists secrete a bomb in HRC’s vagina. I refuse to wrench my brain down into the gutter far enough to find a race-based comparison. For shame.
Goodbye to the sick, malicious idea that this is funny. This is not “Clinton hating,” not “Hillary hating.” This is sociopathic woman-hating. If it were about Jews, we would recognize it instantly as anti-Semitic propaganda; if about race, as KKK poison. Hell, PETA would go ballistic if such vomitous spew were directed at animals. Where is our sense of outrage—as citizens, voters, Americans?
So you can’t name even one misogynistic thing the party or the Obama campaign did?
Not one?
Joseph, I was a fool to engage you.
But I won’t be a fool and support Obama.
I am being sincere and authentic,
and to you this is a joke. I hope you get
some enjoyment out of your meaningless sad
existence.
One last thing to you and anyone else
reading: “Hillary Clinton has been branded a “monster” by one of Barack Obama’s top advisers, as the gloves come off in the race to win the Democrat nomination.
In an unguarded moment during an interview with The Scotsman in London, Samantha Power, Mr Obama’s key foreign policy aide, let slip the camp’s true feelings about the former first lady.”
The greatest show of misogyny
happened when no one, not Obama’s people,
not the DNC, and not the main stream media
ever showed outrage and disgust at the
attacks on the most important and ground
breaking female politicians in U.S.
History.
This country does not value women, and that
is heart breaking.
are these voters mentally insane? are they really that pissed off about an offhand sweetie comment and the pretty much fair elections that have been held? do they really think john mccain is their man when it comes to women’s rights?
i think this is the exact form of divisive politics clinton preaches and obama ditches. if “clinton supporters count too” actually cause obama to lose, no doubt that will be seen as racism rather than a counter to sexism.
Aloha Ladies,
I am a Hillary Supporter in Hawaii who had the misfortune to catch Bill O’Reilly’s interview with Cynthia Ruccia and Kimberly Myers. Frankly, I am embarrassed and appalled that the two of them went on national television to represent female supporters of Hillary Clinton.
We all must look at the big picture. As much as I want Sen. Clinton to win the nomination, I believe we are witnessing an historic moment in time. We have the opportunity to see either a woman or an African American in the White House looking out for the interests of all the people of these United States. I believe that we must realize that unless the Democratic Party forms a united front, we will all be responsible for sending John McCain to the White House. Sen. McCain does not have the interests of the regular man in mind. While my loyalty is first to Sen. Clinton, my greater loyalty is to my family, the families of all “regular” families, and to the Democratic Party.
You do Hillary a disservice when you use airtime to “whine and complain” in an attempt to get your way. Contrary to what you obviously already believe, this primary campaign has been fair. Florida and Michigan broke the rules, Sen. Clinton agreed and signed off. Now that we’ve fallen behind in the race, many are saying we must not “disenfranchise” the voters of those two states. To blame Sen. Obama, who I believe has run a decent campaign, is not the answer. But most of all, if this group decides to follow suit and vote for Sen. McCain for the reasons you’ve mentioned, you do yourself and your families a disservice.
I saw the interview May 15th and it bothered me so much that I wasn’t able to rest last night. I felt I had to respond to your interview. And I must say, ladies, I am not with you on this.
We are women of strength, integrity, grace, and power! You gave all that away for your 15 seconds of fame.
Mahalo for your attention,
Mary Pearson
Mary Pearson,
I hear that the Obama campaign hired 400 bloggers to mollify the Clinton supporters and gain our vote. I wonder if you are one of them. I would not be surprised.
A true Hillary supporter would not use this sentence when speaking about another Hillary supporter:
“You do Hillary a disservice when you use airtime to “whine and complain” in an attempt to get your way.”
Perhaps you need to get more training in peace making.
Personally, I am so glad someone out there is giving us an outlet for our “whines and complaints”. Check out: http://wilknetwork.com/ Steven Corbett Radio Show..
By the way, if anyone here is interested, There’s finally a website for us disgruntled females and males who support Hillary to organize.
http://clintondems.com/
I heard that the Clinton campaign hired 500 commentors to go around posting made up nonsense on great blogs like this one.
I wonder if you are one of them, Anne-Marie. I would not be surprised.
I can’t believe we are even discussing voting for John McSame in the face of overwhelming challenges that are coming.
We have to get out of Iraq- which McSame wont do.
We have to get judges who are pro-choice on the SC -which McSame will not do
We need good sound policy moving foward on Global Warming -which McSame will not do.
I am a woman and when I hear things like this I want to scream to the Heavens! We have enough on our plate to accomplish and at the very least Obama wont seek to destroy women and all we have gained for the forseeable future. This is Operation Chaos write large and sad. I hope you this crazy silly season ends because I for believe that choice, the war and global warming are bigger issues than whether Hillary got a fair shake.
Joseph, you’re weak.
It’s so funny that the Obama people started this rumor about Hillary supporters to cover up their hiring of fake bloggers. How see through is that?
Perhaps the Clinton campaign also paid off that radio host in Pennsylvania and all the women that call it? (http://wilknetwork.com/ Steven Corbett Radio Show.)
I don’t think so. Remember Obama is the one with all your money to burn.
Response to Obama blog Open Letter to CSCT:
Hillary Clinton was vilified for being a woman, period. I don’t expect you to see this because you believe people who see this plainly & wish to empower themselves the only way they know how are petty and selfish. Obama supporters & MSM have tried to deny women their respect & power, so we’ll take that back & prove our empowerment.
Unfortunately, it’s not the right-wing that vilified Hillary, it’s the Obama supporters. How can we show they need to respect us and 50% of the Democratic Party? By not supporting their candidate. Got that? It would be too convenient and meaningless to them to illustrate that point by supporting their candidate. Women matter, our time is NOW. Not later.
Selfish-soapbox-pontification? Righteous-indignation? Spend one minute writing about the larger issue of sexism in America then tell ME about these things.
Let’s talk about violence against women in America, eh? How about the weekly reports of college women, hunted down by piggish men that rape and kill them? My experience with this came when I was 15 and I was kidnapped, raped and almost hung from a tree. Yes, hung from a tree…sounds like a lynching, no? 22 years later I gave birth to my second child. While in the hospital, my husband sent my older child, a 15 year-old daughter to a friends house. They disappeared for a day. Turns out 5 disgusting pieces of sh*t men/teen boys sexually assaulted her forcing her to perform oral sex on them. Nothing has changed in 22 years. TELL ME IT DOESN’T HURT. TELL ME IT’S PETTY. Tell me I can’t exert my peaceful boycott of this election and tell me more, that I can’t vote for whoever the hell I want to vote for. Women have been silent too long, I’ve been silent too long. You WILL hear us.
Many fine women fought for my right to vote for whomever and they fought for your right to vote Obama.
I’m a white, middle class woman and like it or not, we are suffering atrocities. And if you believe we are petty for acting out against the sexist bullies out there after we have all been bullied by bush for 8 years, you will believe it when you have McCain.
Thank you, but I will vote for whomever I want, it’s all the power we have right now thanks to the media and the Obamabots.
First off, Hillary is NOT the “Ron Paul” of the Democrats. She is not that far behind! The pressure for her to end the race is suspect at best! Second, the sexism that has pervaded the mainstream media’s coverage of Hillary – and ignored by the DNC – is nothing short of astonishing! I’m saddened to be part of a country and party that 1) is unaware of the signs of sexism and/or 2) doesn’t care. For example, I’ve spent months watching Hillary be chastised in the name of “she’s a Clinton.” I watched as people I thought were educated and progressive adults go along with these statements, utterly unaware how their decision to tie her identity with her husband (i.e. highlighted by those who call her Billary) is, itself, an incredibly sexist statement. This is NOT the 1800s and a woman is NOT defined by her husband. This is one of MANY, many sexist remarks that have emerged during this race that was SUPPOSE to be a historical time for TWO reasons. We’re still behind you Hillary & we know “the more experienced choice who is more capable of making change” when we see it. Let our own party force us out. Its far from the first time women (or gays or other pro-female communities) have had to walk our own path. God helps us all.
Michelle Obama said — if Hillary can’t control her own house, she can’t control the white house. It’s no surprise to women that other women can be as sexist as men. She was playing to the youth vote and perpetuating the stereotype of women as caregivers not leaders.
Obama supporters unfurled a sign at a Hillary rally that said “iron my shirts” which garnered a huge laugh from the media and from the Obama camp. Talk about an ideal momemnt for all the candidates to denounce sexism–but of course the denouncement never came. Hillary was left to laugh it off and move on just like every other woman in her position is left to deal with it on their own. For a man running for the President, he missed a great opportunity to stand up and do the right thing.
What was Ted Kennedy saying when he said no to the so-called dream ticket, “I think if we had real leadership — as we do in Barack Obama — in the number two spot as well, it’d be enormously helpful.” It sure sounds like he is saying that Hillary is not capable of being a leader. This is the same man who said that she was not responsible for CHIP or for the peace agreement in Northern Ireland during the 2007-2008 primaries–despite publicly thanking her several times for her work on both projects in the past. Is it sexism? You could argue it either way unless you’ve been in the workforce for awhile–unless you’ve seen this tactic used time and time again to promote a younger, less qualified male over an older, highly qualified female. Its impossible to understand the visceral reaction many women are having if you’ve not worked on a project for months only to have the “report” be given by a male who receives not only “credit” for your work but also a new title and a bigger paycheck then be accused of “not being a team player” when you object. After all, it is all about the success of the company (democratic party), not about the the egocentrical views of the workers (candidates), right?
Wow, not even sure that I should post here, as I see that people who have some well-thought out posts are attacked by Hillary posters.
I can’t believe that you and your group are actually talking about supporting McCain, a man whose views change depending on who is running his campaign at the time.
I’ve watched the campaigns with interest, and disillusion. I’ve lost most of my respect for HRC during this campaign season. She’s really shown how “Old Guard” she truly is. She does lie. She does exaggerate. She is part of the “business as usual” crowd that has dominated Washington. But, if she had won, I wouuld have voted for her in the national elections.
Are there any women of color in this new group, “Clinton Supporters”, or is it created, once again, by middle-class white women? Seriously, in the world of sexism and discrimination, where exactly do y’all fall?
Obama has not disrespected HRC, except when he was attacked, and even his attacks were nowhere near as vicious as HRC’s were towards him. He’s an intelligent, sensible man who will make a great President. Hopefully, the Clinton Supporters will not warrant enough media to do any damage.
I find Obama’s dismissive tone towards women unsettling. I cannot, without reservation, vote for a man who calls a woman “sweetie” when he’s running for the Presidency of the United States. Totally irresponsible and immature. Also, for Obama to say that his pastor has not been influential to him is pure hogwash. I too have not had a father presence most of my life, and the pastor I found, Dr. Charles Stanley, has served as a wonderful substitute to guide me in moral and Christian ways for the past 20 years, very similar to Obama’s timeframe. I heard Obama’s Pastor’s speech on NPR where he said “GD America.” I find it incredulous that Obama would not have found out about it. My Pastor (Pastor Tony) married my husband and me also (just like Obama’s Pastor), and I highly respect and agree with my Pastor. Otherwise, I have a choice and can leave (just like you said). I make the same assumption that Obama agrees with his Pastor, no matter what Obama says in public.
The bottom line is, I don’t respect or trust Obama …. for many reasons … his strong radical Muslim background and ties, condescending tone towards women (“sweetie”), elitist attitude (“can’t I just eat my pancakes” in Scranton, PA), drug addiction (in his book), not wearing a flag pin until cratering to peer pressure, and NOT PUTTING HIS HAND ACROSS HIS CHEST DURING THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIENCE! (among others … see DONTVOTEOBAMA.NET) I cannot in good conscience vote for him. I DON’T CARE WHETHER HE IS A DEMOCRAT, I DON’T FEEL HE IS A PATRIOT!
Hillary and McCain are both patriots. I have never voted for a Republican, but I will do what I believe is best for this country. I’ll even consider voting for Bob Barr of the Libertarian party. BUT I WILL ****NOT**** VOTE FOR OBAMA under any circumstances.
I have sent a letter to Hillary with the following:
“PLEASE KEEP GOING HILLARY! DON’T STOP … THE MORE THAT THE SUPER’S LEARN ABOUT OBAMA, THE MORE THEY WILL REALIZE HIS INEXPERIENCE AND EXTREMISM! PLEASE DON’T QUIT NOW!!
IF YOU DON’T WIN THE NOMINATION, PLEASE GO INDEPENDENT OR AS A WRITE-IN!
If you don’t win as a write-in, McCain wins, but many people will vote for McCain anyway if they can’t vote for you, so what’s wrong with this strategy??? I know the Democratic party probably will never forgive you, but who cares? What have you got to lose! You have everything to gain. WE’RE BEHIND YOU! It will not be the end of your political career. You are much too tough for that to happen.
Also, if you go as an Independent, there’s always a chance that you can win the vote. Look what happened with Lieberman!!
PLEASE DON’T LET US DOWN …. WE NEED YOU IN NOVEMBER!!!”
Jill- I hope you are keeping track of the IP addresses of these commentors.
Obama is a muslim? doesn’t wear a flag pin?
There is not way a Democrat would be posting lies like this.
It’s obviously an organized campaign.
You people just do not get it. Clinton has lost fair and square. Get with it you poor losers.
To the fella who spoke of the opportunistic candidate who left his wealthy wife for a wealthier woman… of course you mean that self proclaimed war hero, Hanoi John Kerry, correct? Gawd, how I love the artificial layers of plastic melting from the democrat facade as this race heats up. You pseudo-intellectual leftys amuse me so… THANKS!!!
Just checked out that website Kat posted.
Here are some of the other evil things Obama is associated with:
* He supports gay rights – including health benefits for same-sex partners
* His parents broke Miscegenation (mixed-race) laws when they married in the 60’s.
* He supports abortion rights
Obviously Kat – and I imagine a lot of the other people posting comments here – are crazy right wing nuts pretending to be concerned Democrats.
Don’t fall for it.
I will not vote for Obama,
I agree with Kimberly Myers, i am upset with the dems and if Hillary is not the nominee, i will go republican. This is one time i will not listen to hillary.
Sore losers and an embarassment to women. Where was all the complaints and sexism out cry before there was an Obama lead that was impossible to beat? Where is the outrage that all candidates, that includes Hillary signed agreements that MI/FL primaries do not count in fact are null and void. It is ok to disregard a signed primary election agreement because Hillary needs the votes? Chris Mathews gave an on air apology. Obama apologized for his sweetie remark. Not enough? We have bitter women complaining that Barack pulled out Hillary’s chair for her to sit during a debate and now a bunch of bitter losers crying sexism. Barack got just as many if not more racist attacks. I know this group of Hillary supporters is uneducated but please do your homework. How much Secret Service does Baraxck have vs. Hillary? You really have the nerve to say she has had a rouph ride because of sexism. Hillary lost because she ran a sloppy campaign–20 million dollars in debt is not because of sexism. It’s bad management skills. Please stop embarrassing women and the Democratic party. You make us ashamed. Grow up.
It certainly does look like some comments on this thread have nothing to do with valuing Hillary Clinton and everything to do with electing John McCain. And I simply must comment on Anne Marie’s assertion that
“**I am not arguing it. I see the difference with my own eyes. McCain is a good friend of Hillary’s and he has never nor do I believe will he ever disrespect her the way Obama and the DNC has.”
Well McCain certainly has said disrespectful things – hideous and awful things, not only about about Hillary, but also her then 18 year old daughter. At a GOP event in 1998 he told a Hillary/Chelsea/Reno joke so vicious that even when forced to report the story media outlets would not print the joke itself.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/azmqp
You gave your agenda away.
[...] Writes Like She Talks – which is listed as “very negative.” [...]
I agree with Judy in #40.
To wit – “Hillary or Bust” Commenter: you don’t see your astroturf here because I’ve deleted it and I’ll do the same for anyone else. If you have something original and sincere, say it. If not, go to your own echo chamber. I will close off comments if all this thread ends up being is talking past one another. That’s not what “conversing” means.
I too, am sick of the way the democratic party has handled this mess. They have thrown Obama in our face. Bill Richardson makes me want to vomit. I know of about 30 women who will not vote for Obama and are leaving the democratic party because of the way Hillary has been treated and I am one of them. I will vote for McCain even though I have never voted Republican. Glad this organization got started, hope I can help.
These women seem to be missing the target. This is a case where they SHOULD be shooting the messenger. The MEDIA is the biased one and the party at fault. They are being manipulated into a suicide vote, for a candidate and party whose goals are completely against their own interests.
- Say good bye to Roe V. Wade when McCain stacks the court. And don’t count on what will likely be Democratic majorities in the Senate to stop him (Too many DINO’s there)
- Say good bye to any possible investigation of Bush Admin Criminality when McCain retains control of the corrupted Justice Department.
- Say good bye to any chance at peace in the Middle East (or around the world) soon and say good bye to more of your children marching off to die in the meat grinder of his War Machines gears.
- Say hello to continued Republican control of all the Executive Regulatory Branches and the continued dismantling of their watchdog functions (FAA, Food & Drug, etc.)
Finally, say hello to a plastic surgeon, because in my opinion, you will have cut off your face to spite your nose.
I am tired of hearing that it would not be fair to Obama to count Florida and Michigan as they stand, he is the one that refused a revote. If these states had counted, Hillary would have the momentum that she needs. If Obama was ahead in these states, the DNC would have already counted them. I think Hillary should run as an Independent and let Obama have the Democratic Party. I don’t appreciate Super-Delegates voting for me. I have had it with the Democratic Party, never again will I vote Democrat. I am 53 years old and have always been a Democrat but I am sickened by my party this year. Obama has been shoved down our throats by the Media and our party leaders. Michelle Obama for first lady, you have got to be kidding, would she be proud of her country for the second time in her adult life if this happens. What a joke the whole Democrat Party is.
I WILL NOT vote for Barack Obama because I want to watch those Obama worshipers CRY!!! Really, I can hardly stand these “cult followers”…..I have always voted Democrat…not this time…this will not change for me and about twenty-five other supporters. We have watched this worship and decided not to participate in Obama and his “perfect” wife. Hillary has been so demonized. I can hardly wait until Michelle keeps on talking….this is going to get actually funny…..meantime we will sit back and watch the king and his followers.
Judy and everyone reading. I don’t have an agenda, other than a personal one to do what I can to live in a world where all people are treated with dignity.
Here’s what Judy was referring to. It’s sad, but in context, it does not compare to what has come out in the current Democratic Primary season.
____________________________________
“Earlier this month [The source article was written in 1998, 10 years ago at the time of the Lewinsky scandal], at a Republican Senate fund-raiser, McCain told a…joke making fun of Janet Reno, Hillary Rodham Clinton and Chelsea Clinton.
“Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly?
Because her father is Janet Reno.”
___________________________________
I am not naive. I am not considering voting for McCain because I think he is a feminist or because he is perfect. I am considering voting for him because he has not yet been tainted by participating in active campaigning on a national scale that makes use of negative gender stereotypes and misogyny for personal gain against the most important female politician in US history.
This is a case of what is appropriate to say in private to a group of friendly peers, vs. what you think is appropriate to say in public. He never called Hillary untrustworthy, dishonest and a monster on a national stage.
Remember who Hillary is. The most important female politician in US history to date. Name me one other woman, other than Eleanor Roosevelt who never ran for office, who is more important and accomplished in the world of US politics. Why doesn’t that mean anything to you, women Obama supporters? Why don’t you feel proud of accomplished women and empower them in a world where women only got the right to vote in 1920, less than 100 years ago? Why doesn’t first female president mean anything to you? It’s not like we’ve ever had any before. Why shouldn’t it be a woman’s turn now? Because Hillary is not perfect? Because she killed and ate babies? Because she’s never fought for the rights of minorities and women her entire professional life? (She has) Because she’s not smart enough, pretty enough? What is so wrong with her as a woman that makes her so different from any other male politician that’s come before, that you, as a woman can’t bring yourself to support? For your own good.
I hope that McCain is smart, and learns quickly: If Hillary is the nominee, he needs to stay away from abusing her the way Obama/MSM/DNC has if he wants to have a prayer to win. If she’s not the nominee, I hope he learns to be on his best behavior and even make an effort to reach out to women, because then he’ll have a lot to gain, and so will the women of this country. Respect for women should be rewarded. The Democratic Party and their favored son has failed in that arena, and won’t get rewarded with my vote.
People learn and change, especially if they want a big reward like the US Presidency. This is a great opportunity for me as a feminist to use my power of vote to create a meaningful change in our society.
I am not as eloquent as I could be, I hope you get what I am saying, but if you don’t get what I am saying, please ask me questions so I can clarify, if you are interested in a sincere and authentic discussion, and not just accusing me and dismissing me.
That article goes on to say:
“It…exposed how the Washington Post, New York Times and Los Angeles Times play favorites when reporting the foibles of our leading politicians.”
They are referring to how the media never printed that joke because McCain was a media darling. I guess the media has not changed much. They are biased about what they report, based on who they like, just like during this election season.
JUDY’s ORIGINAL POST
It certainly does look like some comments on this thread have nothing to do with valuing Hillary Clinton and everything to do with electing John McCain. And I simply must comment on Anne Marie’s assertion that
“**I am not arguing it. I see the difference with my own eyes. McCain is a good friend of Hillary’s and he has never nor do I believe will he ever disrespect her the way Obama and the DNC has.”
Well McCain certainly has said disrespectful things – hideous and awful things, not only about about Hillary, but also her then 18 year old daughter. At a GOP event in 1998 he told a Hillary/Chelsea/Reno joke so vicious that even when forced to report the story media outlets would not print the joke itself.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/azmqp
You gave your agenda away.
I’m an independent. I have been actively voting since 1968. I generally vote Democratic and was looking forward to it this election. I did not vote for G. Bush as I felt he was untested, pliable by other dominants and merely a puppet President, out of touch with middle America, too engaged with corporate elites although a poor performer while in the corporate venues, and not patriotic as evidenced by his “no show” attitude while in the Reserves. Bush was, and still is, very defensive when cornered on a subject. I feel much the same about Obama: I feel he is untested, pliable by other dominants and merely a puppet President, out of touch with middle America, too engaged with intellectual elites, and I do question his patriotism and emotional connection to this country and ALL the people who built it. Obama is very defensive when cornered on a subject. Bush was vague and ran the election process as a personality contest; although it did take the first silent coupe led by Scialia to actually win. Obama is vague and runs the election process as a personality contest; weak on specifics, strong on rhetoric and demonstrates to me a passive aggressive attitude to just about everything. This attitude has disenfranchised him to Ohio, Kentucky, West Virginia, Michigan and Florida. Both of Obama and Bush are far from the uniters they say they are and are naive on both a domestic and an international agenda.
I hate to vote for McCain this year after the last 8 years. I will absolutely not vote in another newbie, ie Obama, or one I have so many questions about. I strongly supported Clinton and still do. I feel she is the most experienced, has a solid grasp of the nuances of the issues, and can get things done. She is not a puppet. If Clinton were to be the nominee, she would get my vote. Otherwise, it will have to be a write in for Hillary..
As for the DNC? They can stick their head where to sun don’t shine. I have contributed to them on and off for years. Never again. Their sexist attitude blazed brightly when they did not defend, but attacked Ferraro, or Clinton when called a “Ho”, or when chastised for “pimping out” Chelsea. They sat on their thumbs and twirled. The DNC has lost my respect, and this woman for good.
The same goes with the news media, especially NBC and MSNBC. I used to watch them all the time. I quit about 2 months ago and will not return. They have lost any concept of unbiased news reporting and it has been disgraceful how they have actively played a biased role and misogynist role in trying to swing the vote to their novelty, Obama. I know now they are not trustworthy in reporting news, and if I wanted to listen to biased opinions, shameless slams on woman hood and woman capabilities, I would listen to the Taleban. The underlying misogyny on MSNBC is rampant. For news, I will have to listen to a combo of sources with a guarded eye from now on.
I also WILL NOT vote for Obama. The attacks on Hillary throughout this process ha been unexcuseable. Thereore let my voice and vote be another added to the listof people that will not help Obama become president.
Dear All,
I live in Canada and am an American. I have cast my vote for John McCain
because Hillary, who I really want, cannot win. What the media has done to her
is vile and disgusting and unwarranted. Furthermore, the bias coverage has
given Obama the most amazing advantage. The whole thing is a farce and makes me
ill. It is my sincere hope that everyone who wanted Hillary for president votes
for McCain. Obama’s background, inexperience and naivity will absolutely ruin
the U.S.A.
Thank you.
I am amazed, as a woman, to see the lengths some of you will go to in order to rationalize your hatred. You are making the rest of us look bad-you are acting like spiteful, emotional women and playing right into stereotypes most men continue to have. Please stop portraying Hillary as the saint she most certainly is not, as if she has not stooped to new lows in this campaign. Have you forgotten about her attacks on Obama? Oh yes, you continue to believe the ridiculous falsehoods that circulate on your email. EDUCATE YOURSELVES, PLEASE!!!!! Go ahead, elect John McCain-and watch all of the progress women have made continue to go down the drain under another Republican administration.
Wake up!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you, Michelle, for a reasonable response.
[...] some Democrats are threatening to vote for a guy like McCain if their candidate isn’t the [...]
I am in absolute shock to hear people singing the praises of the fake named Obama! In fact, it sickens me. Let’s review….member of a church filled with racist hate statements for more than 20 years, a wife who is not proud of her country, Rezko connections/deal cutting, terrorist friends who wish they could have done more harm to the country………if this is what we have learned, WHAT HAVE WE YET TO LEARN ABOUT THIS ‘MAN’?????????? It frightens me no end that this inexperienced, far left candidate could actually run the most powerful country in the world. Perhaps ‘frightens’ is not a strong enough word. Frankly, it scares the hell out of me. Furthermore, he NEVER would have made it past the first round had he been properly vetted. A lot of people who did not know any better most assuredly will vote republican if obama is our nominee…and thank God for that!
Comments that don’t dial back the push on talking points are in danger of being edited and/or deleted.
If you have a concern to assert, provide a link. I will embed it if you don’t know how. Or email me.
If you can’t provide support for your assertions, then don’t offer it.
Oh come on Jill. Dana is just an angry “democrat” who happens to watch fox news.
I left this comment on the other thread and I would advise several of the commenters to consider this advice:
Some commenters – just some, not all – would benefit enormously from knowing how to write comments more like letters to the editor:
get rid of the exclamation marks
provide a link or two to support your assertions
give ground where you can to show credibility and temperance
and let your argument speak for itself
Otherwise, it’s all just bytes in the cyberspace that no one is going to really listen to.
And I would hope that the thing you most want to do is get across your message in a way that people can hear it.
How can she win when all the media has promoted their “charismic” the next JFK, (my you know what!!) I’m from S.D. and beings Mr. O doesn’t give a rat about us and doesn’t want us to vote makes me dislike him even more. I will NOT vote for him now or in the general, he WILL lose. The republicans will eat him up and spit him out. And by the way leave his pretty little fluffy wife out of this
Second warning: from here on out (#58 forward) any personal attacks like “pretty little fluffy wife” will be deleted. My blog, my judgement.
The free for all is over. If you want to make such comments, find another blog.
There is some absolute crazyness going on here. Lots of misinformation, I suspect much of it intentional.
I’ll dispell one myth… fact: the “iron my shirt” hecklers were from a drive-time shock-jock radio program, not Obama’s campaign or supporters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toucher_and_Rich_Show
Truth is, I can do the same for virtually every anti-Obama smear in this “discussion”. Absolute insanity, that’s what this is.
joseph and anyone else who’s saying how awful a McCain presidency would be:
Im a lifelong Democrat. I will not vote for Obama. Nor will I be shamed or guilted into voting for him by the threat of how much harm a McCain presidency will do to the USA. Those of you try to lay the blame at the feet of people who will boycott Obama should look at yourselves. Take responsibility for your own actions in pushing a candidate who has alienated a large segment of the Democratic base.
This is the USA. Everyone can – and should – vote for the candidate she/he prefers. If you want us to vote for your candidate, nominate a candidate we want to vote for. If you nominate a candidate who doesn’t win the election, that’s on you, not just the people who voted for someone else. If McCain should win, the responsibility for any consequences is as much your responsibility as it is the responsibility of Dems who either boycott the general, vote for McCain, or vote for Clinton or a third party candidate.
So before you start pointing fingers, look at your own responsibility for this mess. What did you do to stop this train wreck? (It was obvious it was coming since at least Super Tuesday.) Adult up and take responsibility for your own actions (or inactions). Finger pointing only serves to further alienate many Clinton supporters.
I will try to post later about why I will never support Obama but I’m disabled and can’t type up even half my reasons right now.
Michele – I certainly don’t think that Clinton is a saint. She’s made some serious blunders, just as Obama has. I’ve winced at some of the remarks Clinton has made, just as I’ve winced at some of the things Obama has said and had my jaw literally drop at some of the things Obama did. But you don’t seem to get it. I don’t need men’s approval or permission. I don’t care if they think that I’m a “spiteful, emotional” woman. Anyone who thinks that is so misogynistic that I’m not going to win them over no matter what I do.
joseph – in your response to Michele (despite my poor vision, I notice you couldn’t even trouble yourself to spell her name correctly), you have outed yourself as a sexist. Thank you for making your agenda here so transparent.
to whomever implied that only white, middle-class women are boycotting Obama – (parenthetically, why is it ok to try to marginalize white, middle-class or older women any more than it would be to marginalize any other group? )
i am brown and disabled. i have spent enough of my adult life to know what it’s like to be poor. fortunately, i am middle-class now but i’ve gone from poor (and sometimes homeless for several months) to middle class and back enough times to understand the many difficult problems the poor must deal with on a daily basis. i live in CA, in one of the few counties who voted for Obama on Super Tuesday. (Obama lost to Clinton even in Alameda County, where the two largest cities are Oakland and Berkeley.) Almost half the women i know, many of whom voted for Obama in february and many others who were only weak Clinton supporters then, will not vote for Obama in the general. You may think CA is safe but we regularly elect Republicans. Both our senators are women. without the support of women, hispanics, and APIs, i think the Dems could be in trouble there.
the Obama boycott is not just a bunch of angry, older, middle-class, white feminists. unless you realize that soon, the Dems could easily lose in Nov. if that happens, don’t try to lay that on the people who don’t support him.
ps – i wanted to clarify that the “train wreck” i was referring to was the disenfranchisement of the FL and MI voters and the two front-runners having strong appeal to important segments of the Dem base while alienating other important segments of that base. i apologize for any confusion.
Norma – thanks for this very individualized comment. I agree with you about the not being pushed around and people should absolutely do with their vote as they please. No argument there.
However, when you get the chance, I’d like to read more about why – why are you uninterested in voting for Obama? Thanks and I understand if you’re not able to respond so soon.
Don’t waste your breath, Brian.
Logic does no good here.
Which leads me to believe that this whole “Obama Boycott” is being coordinated by the Republicans.
Norma – it’s nice to see a reasonable post, even if I disagree with much of it, from one of the people vacating the Democratic party. You’ve stayed away from propagating the crazy (and provably false!) anti-Obama stuff.
First, I’d like to point out that *all* of the Democratic candidates, *including* Clinton, agreed to the “disenfranchisement” of the FL and MI voters. This was done at a time when Clinton was so far ahead that she much have figured it didn’t matter. There are video clips out there of her talking about how those delegates deserved to not be seated. But she sure changed her tune when she realized she needed every delegate she could get.
Second, what – exactly – has Obama done that makes voting for him completely unpalatable? Not the media, not random people, but *Obama*, or official Obama surrogates?
For the record, for a very long time I’ve felt that Hillary Clinton was unfairly maligned by many people. At the start of the primary, I was only slightly less enthusiastic about Clinton than I was Obama – primarily based on her triangulation on the Iraq issue. But, as the campaign has worn on, and the rhetoric coming from her campaign grew increasingly nasty (“he’s not a Muslim… as far as I know.”), I’ve grown less and less fond of her. Had she managed to win the primary (virtually impossible now), I would have been disappointed at the judgment of my fellow liberals, but ultimately I would have gotten on board and helped pull on the rope against McCain. (If she were to “steal” the nomination via backroom dealing, OTOH, I don’t think I could support Clinton in the general – because the backroom dealing would run counter to the wishes of the democratic electorate, and that’s not acceptable to me.)
If what we all expect to happen (or, almost all of us anyway) actually happens, and Obama wins the primary, what would he have to do to win your vote over McCain?
Joseph, you’re probably right – and I’m not going to waste my breath trying to refute already-well-debunked right-wing myths about Obama. Those posts probably are coming from “plants”.
However, Norma’s post I think is deserving of a response, and I will continue to try to engage her for as long as she’s willing to talk about it.
Brian,
i will try to reply but i can’t do it all at once.
1. Re: MI and FL
Yes, Clinton signed the agreement. However, at the time she signed it no one envisioned the possibility of the nomination process being so close.
I was looking this up in reply to another poster but it’s the same point so I’ll reply to you.
“Generally, if the parties to a contract share a mistaken belief that is material to the contract, the party adversely affected by that mistake is entitled to rescission of the contract.(5) This doctrine has been with us since the nineteenth century, if not earlier; it is alive and well in the common law of contracts, and statutes concerning contract law have either expressly declined to dislodge it(6) or overtly adopted it.(7)”
http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/contracts-agreements/616436-1.html
This is a well-established and very longstanding principle in US law. Despite what many non-lawyers think, a contract that is written under one set of circumstances is often non-binding when those circumstances change. I’m sorry, I have brain fog now and can’t think of the correct terms, but since the late 19th century (at least), the law looks to the spirit of the contract, the fairness of the contract, and the requrement of good faith and fair dealing by all parties as well as the actual words of the contract. Those equitable considerations generally trump a more legalistic approach (the one you seem to be relying on here) of looking only to the words of the contract. Obama must know this well but apparently doesn’t care.
Even Howard Dean (no fan of the Clintons) has publicly said that NO ONE thought, at the time the agreement was proposed or signed, that there was any possibility that either FL or MI would be important in determining who was going to be the Dem nominee. I think this qualifies as “a mistaken belief that is material to the contract.” Obama has chosen legalistic formality over fairness and good faith. In so doing, he alienated many loyal Dems and made it more difficult for the Dems to win FL.
2. The “as far as I know” statement:
In response to very agressive questioning in which she was repeatedly asked if Obama was a Muslim, Clinton said point-blank several times that he was not. Finally she said that he wasn’t a Muslim as far as she knew. I would have replied like she did. I took her response to mean that “Look. I’ve said over and over that he’s not a Muslim. Why do you keep asking me that question? I have no information to indicate that he’s a Muslim.” I think her later comments made that clear.
Instead of questioning why the male interviewer was trying to intimidate her (or the journalistic ethics of his intent or approach) and push her into saying something incendiary, Obama supporters severely edited what she said, broadcast it on YouTube (with only the last part of the series of questions about Obama being a Muslim and Clinton’s answer being played ad nauseum), and turned it into Clinton trying to spread rumors about him being a Muslim.
There was no outcry about a male reporter trying to use his power (and the socialization/indoctrination of women to try to please men) to bully her into saying something questionable about Obama even after she’d repeatedly said that he wasn’t a Muslim. There was no effort by the MSM or the Obama camp to examine the sexism inherent in the interviewer’s behavior or to examine the sexism or misogyny in their own behavior. Instead, her words, which to me were very clearly trying to nix the whole nasty, vicious “Obama is a Muslim” rumor, were taken completely out context and twisted into Clinton trying to promulgate that smear. I thought it was disgusting.
NB: I do understand why some people were hurt by or angry about what Clinton said, even if they watched the interview before reading any of the hateful and misogynisitic interpretation presented on the blogs and the MSM. I think that she worded her response badly and, in doing so, alienated many people. That is her responsibility and I think she tried to take responsibility by issuing her later remarks concerning the interview. What I don’t understand is why people still persist in pointing to this as an example of her smearing Obama. I also don’t understand why so few in the Obama camp (and no one in his campaign proper) has tried to address the sexism and misogyny (as well as the racism and religious hatred) inherent in the interview and its aftermath.
Brian,
sorry for another ps but i think it’s important.
re: MI and FL
regardless of the contractual issue, i passionately believe that it is morally wrong to disenfranchise millions of voters. i wrote to the DNC as well as my senators about this in Jan, well before i had decided who i was going to vote for or knew that this was going to be a close race. i think many in the Obama camp don’t understand how many VOTERS feel strongly about this, not because it favors Clinton but because it’s fundamentally unfair and politically unwise.
You make a good argument, Norma.
But if you continue reading, you’ll find that the actual definition of a ‘mistaken belief’ that can be used to void a contract does not apply to the situation in MI and FL.
For the purposes of contract voidability the mistake “must relate to the facts as they are at the time of the making of the contract. A party’s prediction or judgment as to events to occur in the future, even if erroneous, is not a mistake, as that word is defined here.”
The example they use involves the sale of a cow that is believed to be barren.
The owner of the cow, believing it can not produce calfs, agrees to sell the cow at a much reduced price.
Prior to delivery of the cow, it is discovered to be ‘with calf’.
Since both parties signed the contract thinking the cow was barren – which it was not- the contract could be voided because of that mutual mistake.
This is totally different than what is happening with the delegates in FL and MI.
The value of the delegates has not changed because of some misunderstanding.
The delegates still have the same value.
Instead, the circumstances have changed. This is something that could not have been predicted at the time the agreement was signed- but it doesn’t represent a mistake at the time it was signed.
Asking to seat the delegates now would be like the rancher asking for his cow back because the price of beef has gone up since he sold it.
I concur with Geraldine Ferraro that sexism has been rife in this campaign. In fact, I have frequently sent e-mails to anchors and stations to complain about the blatant and disgusting sexism in newscasts, commentary, and by Sen. Obama himself. I believe that the sexism is (and has been throughout the Primary campaign, since December ‘07) unfairly undermining Sen. Clinton in her bid for the nomination and that CNN and other stations will be slapped with a lawsuit. In fact, I will recommend this to every civil rights and affirmative action group that I can find.
Sen. Obama has been shameless in his arrogance and his cheap, sexist shots at Sen. Hillary Clinton since the December debates. The media has overlooked these remarks, and actions on his part toward Sen. Clinton; worse, the media has bought into Obama’s trivialization of his sexism and also into his frequent assertion of “racism.” Obama’s recent remark of “not now, sweetie” to a female reporter is deserving of a sexual harassment charge; a parallel example would be if Sen. Clinton had remarked to a black reporter, “not now, boy.” ‘
Obama and his cronies have tried to muscle Sen. Clinton out of the race since March! And the Media –CNN and FOX –have both supported that bullying behavior, to the extent where last month, they declared Sen. Clinton’s campaign “over” times too numerous to count! This falsehood wrongly influenced Clinton supporters (including the superdelegates, unpledged delegates) to give up on Clinton as a potential winner and to fall back on Obama! This is deserving of a lawsuit because this was not “truth” but falsehood, and it negatively and unfairly affected Sen. Clinton’s progress in this race for the nomination.
Then, Obama declared HIMSELF the victor! His photo came out on the cover of two national news magazines: again,a false and perjorative influence on the viability of Sen. Clinton’s campaign.
I agree with Sen. Geraldine Ferraro (who was pushed out of Clinton’s campaign by Obama & company’s claiming “racism”!). I invite an objective media analysis by the group at Harvard referenced by Ferraro, for example, to review the media coverage of Obama and Clinton, and render a judgement. Then, the next step should be a lawsuit by national groups who fight sexism in public life.
When it comes to Sen. Obama, even the so-called “journalists” seem to have fallen asleep under the influence of his opiate and vacuous sway. I agree with Cynthia Ruccia, and plan to join her in refusing to vote for Obama, and also in recruiting other supporters of Sen. Clinton to do the same. Given Obama’s record of leftist and terrorist associations, his membership in a black nationalist church, his disdain for American constitutional right to bear arms, and his disdain for our veterans’ sacrifices to keep the wars away from our homeland, I expect that many Americans other than myself will refuse to be railroaded by propagandistic rhetoric of Obama, prejudiced “news” from the media, and strong-arming by the “old boys network” of the Democratic party! If her fair chance at winning the nomination is stolen from Sen. Hillary Clinton because of the refusal by the Democratic Party to count each and every vote cast in Florida and Michigan, then they don’t deserve “Party” loyal -tea” : I say, throw them overboard, and support John McCain! Many of the democrats in my age group (boomers from the 60’s) are wise to the leftist and progressive rant mouthed by Obama: we know a power-hungry, ambitious phony when we see him –and it has nothing to do with the color of his skin.
Marie – either you did a lousy job cutting and pasting from whatever source you use for your talking points or you are perseverating. Either way, you also are completely conclusory in every assertion that you make – you do not provide a single specific incident to backup even one of your concerns about the media or Obama. And even I know that there are plenty to choose from.
What is a boomer from the 60s? I’m a boomer and was born in 1962 but I don’t feel that I have much in common with you – I certainly would never write anything like what you wrote and expect for anyone to be persuaded by it.
If you want to persuade people of your position, you need to make your case.
Where is your case? There are many people reading these comments – but your comment only weakens your cause – whatever it is – you don’t really make that clear.
So let me ask you point blank, Marie: What is it that you want? Can you articulate that?
Very few commenters here have been able to do that but I definitely appreciate the ones who are trying.
The anger is important to vent – but this is enough – how about some solutions, Marie – come on, Marie – you can do it, I know you can.
Or maybe not?
What? You didn’t like my cow example?
Informative and convincing and probably even true.
Thanks for your answers, Norma.
Wait a minute. Every time a male reporter is hostile to a female interviewee, it’s sexism? Doesn’t that eliminate any possibility of a hostile media? Is it sexism if a reporter refuses to accept Dana Perino’s answer in a White House press briefing?
There are times when the media has been quite hostile (and badgering) to Obama too, and I know that sure as heck wasn’t racism.
The media *has* had some moments of sexism towards Clinton. This was not one of them. And she could have avoided the entire mess by refusing to cave to badgering and sticking to her guns.
Brian – your challenge isn’t unmerited however, I’d put it slightly differently – the presence of sexism should be judged in regard to whether that reporter’s behavior was identical with Obama or McCain or all the male candiadtes are treated differently. I think part of the assertion here, by Norma but also by many others is that Clinton was treated differntly and not in a complimentary way.
I am not saying it is or isn’t sexism – you and Norma can hash that out – but again, the issue has more to do with whether she was treated differently because of being a woman and to her detriment.
1.I just want to say that Hillary Clinton is not the first woman to run for President. My how American do not know their history. Shirley Chislom ran in 1972. She was an African American woman who did not run on race or gender. Please research her campaign and how she did it with class and dignity. I’ll just post one link about Shirley Chislom but you would be wise to research her legacy. Hillary should have taken notes.
http://womensissues.about.com/od/milestonesadvancements/a/ShirleyChisholm_3.htm
2. For the women who are backing McCain because of sexism please visit youtube for McCain video discussing his response to “How do we beat the B****”(refering to Hillary) He laughs but he doesn’t come to her defense or ask that no one speak about his colleague is such a manner. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLQGWpRVA7o
If that link doesn’t work please do a Youtube search for McCain “How do we beat the B****” It will come right up.
Also read the joke he made about her daugther
http://www.salon.com/news/1998/06/25newsb.html
Ladies what you are doing is covert or overt racism. You don’t want to come out and say you will NEVER vote for a black man so you hide behind this Sexism embrassement issue. What a shame!
I feel those of us who may have the option to pick-up a paper ballot and write in our favorite candidate (Hillary Clinton)in November should do so. We do not have to support the Republican candidate and we do not have to vote for Barack Obama. We can still leave the candidate for President blank. Also, feel free to spread the word as a chain letter to those who are willing to write in Hillary Clinton’s vote in November.
How many of the traditional Blue states do you think Barack Obama can carry? He has won many of the Red states primaries but do you think he will carry them in November if he wins the nomination?
I want to remind some of you out there it took Ralph Nader taking a few votes from Al Gore in 2000 to give George W. Bush the General election. Also, Ted Kennedy cause enough trouble in the Democratic party and Jimmy Carter in 1980 that help the Governor of California (Ronald Reagan) win the General election. Do not believe me just look it up and do your own reaserch.
Edgar, after reading over your posts, I’m a bit confused about your motives. Is your goal to register a protest vote against Obama or to get McCain elected?
If it’s the former, then it seems to me that a less destructive strategy would be to vote for Ralph Nader in states where Obama is heavily favored to win. It would make the votes stand out as protest votes and it would be less destructive to the dems.
Wouldn’t that make more sense?
I support this group – I felt this way long before the group was formed.
I cannot and will not vote for Obama under any circumstances.
Some Obamaniacs, the DNC, the elite of the Democratic Party are delusional and don’t get it!!! We have seen through Mr. Obama, and we don’t like what we see.
NO VOTE FOR OBAMA UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES
An attack on the Clinton Supporters Count Too will not change my mind
Help???
Are there issues other than racism and sexism?
I’m very worried about keeping my house right now. There is going to be a round of layoffs soon at my job.
While we are screaming at each other. Which party will address the economic mess we are in?
Remember healthcare?
Remember the war? I’m sorry 2 wars…
Doesn’t anyone have the big picture in view. For years we have been voting for one guy or another. Many times hoping that the ‘guy’ will advance our causes.
Shoot! I voted for Bill Clinton and he had some pretty bad characteristics when it came to women.
I would vote for him again too… even knowing what he has done.
We vote for presidents to shape our economy and keep us safe in the world… right?
One more thing remember the Supreme Court that really is leaning toward overturning Roe v Wade?
What is wrong with us?
So, because Obama had the gall to actually run a better campaign than Senator Clinton, these nitwits are going to work against Obama? So, because Senator Clinton hired bad people and ran a crappy campaign, my sons will have to die in Iraq and Iran?
Here’s the deal – if these matrons of morality manage to get McCain elected, I will abondon a LIFE LONG commitment to equal rights and I WILL NEVER vote for ANY WOMAN as long as I live (and I never miss an election or primary). I was an Edwards supporter, and I will happily support either Obama or Clinton for the White House, but these women are threatening the future of my children, period, and I will not sit back and be silent. Honest to God, McCain calls Senator Clinton “the bitch”, he has called his own wife the “C” word, but some women will support him because Obama refused to run a bad campaign? Anyone who is willing to kill my children just to “punish” Obama for being better at politics is an idiot, probably a racist, and totally unAmerican. These women are making Ann Coulter look correct.
One more question to my fellow female.
What are the main things you want the next president to fix in the country?
I’m guessing you meant plural there so I’ll go first:
1. the reputation of the United States to be restored – that includes making US feel better about us, acting in line with what we say we value and demonstrating some integrity when we do wrong abroad, as well as in our own country
2. children – anything and everything to show we value children who will grow up to be our caretakers, figuratively and literally – this means health care, education, poverty
3. instill a sense of caretaking in general – that is, that we are dependent on one another from the get-go and must not take anyone or anything for granted – we cannot define issues and set a course to address them if we are not on the same page regarding our obligations to one another, as a country and a society.
These are all foundational to me to everything else: security, environment, tech, science, education, health care etc.
How about you, Jan?
Jill… I did mean ‘fellow females’.
I believe your term ‘caretaking’ would be first for me. That covers healthcare to building a ‘green’ economy… with security and education all rolled up in the caretaking theme.
2. Our reputation abroad must be restored, however our stature in the world is tied to our ability not to be dependent on other nations for oil and cash. Our debt and dependence on oil will be our downfall in the world. It shapes our views on war and keeps us dependent on our enemies.
These are the main issues in addition to judgships, equal rights, and taxes.
I have been a woman all of my life :0) I don’t plan for anyone to step on my equality. But it is not what drives me in terms of my presidential vote. Nothing would be more satisfying than to have the right woman as president. I wouldn’t vote for Condi Rice… because she doesn’t share my world view and I think she would continue down the same misguided path that Bush has us on.
I just want us to think clearly about why we vote and why we choose the Democratic brand.
Jan – I agree with everything you say. I would add to it that, regarding our reputation abroad, I view it also in terms of how we treat people of other sovereign nations, of how we admit when we have done something wrong and so on.
Hi: Join the Clinton Supporters Count too by loging on to http://www.clintonsupporterscounttoo.org. thanks have a great day
Wow. That is one really ugly website.
another Obama supporter – you will lose
@Joseph
You write: “So you can’t name even one misogynistic thing the party or the Obama campaign did?
Not one?”
You honestly believe that the media is not doing the Obama campaign’s dirty work for them? It’s called good cop, bad cop.
@Michele
We know Hillary’s faults all too well, as the Republican’s pioneering work has ingrained in our collective memories and now the Obama campaign and the main stream media continue reminding us.
But I can’t stomach the walking-on-water portrayal of Barak Obama which his machine tries to promote. It’s naive and disingenuous. Barak Obama is not an island. Who’s bank-rolling him? Who stands to gain politically when he’s in the White House? His campaign is comprised of humans who are no doubt sensing imminent power within their reach. These people are susceptible to corruption no less than anyone else.
I can understand the pitch, it gains Obama’s brokers power, but I don’t believe the sale has been finalized. Who is so disillusioned with the system that they’re willing to vote for an unknown? The fear mongering of Hillary Clinton and even of John McCain can’t cause thinking people to just fall into line behind Obama.
At least I know what I’m getting with Hillary, and it’s not all as bad as Obama’s fear machine would have us believe.
HG: You honestly believe that the media is not doing the Obama campaign’s dirty work for them? It’s called good cop, bad cop.
You can’t blame Obama for what the media has said against Hillary. That’s just silly and it opens up the door to blaming Hillary for what the media have said about Obama. No, the media is responsible for its own behavior. Their coverage so far has been pretty damn poor.
That said, if you have credible evidence that either campaign has conspired with the media to coordinate attacks on their opponent, please share it.
My comment is in regards to all the news media that pooh-poohs the idea that there is any sexism in the current campaign. Their remarks, unwilling to give it any credence to the charge, is in itself sexist! The height of sexism in the Democratic Party was when Howard Dean, the head chauvinist, defending Barrach Obama, went on National TV and told the whole world we won’t countenance racism. Why wouldn’t the head nut do the same for the Hilliary Clinton, saying we won’t countenance sexism! It was Obama was that is the lead offender, calling Hillary Annie Oakley in the duck blind, thereby giving every man in America permission to show sexism against his opponent! It becomes sexism when you dismiss women! It is sexism and dismisses women when the news media says “just another woman whinning because she didn’t get what she wanted” What is even worse to me is the women who work for the news media and go along with their sexist, chauvinist bosses. YOU BET THERE IS SEXISM
Thanks, Betty – I tend to agree but I’m not familiar with the Howard Dean reference (I notoriously stay away from party politics as much as I can). You don’t happen to have a reference for that, when or how long ago that happened?
From the tone of your comment, I’m guessing that you were trying to stay restrained but got a bit overwhelmed by your upsetment over the sexism and people’s inability to see it or denial that it exists. That is infuriating, I agree.
Thanks for writing and reading.
HG: Barak Obama is not an island. Who’s bank-rolling him?
Individual contributors who donated less than $200 have been by far the greatest source of Obama’s campaign funding.
http://opensecrets.org/pres08/index.php
Who stands to gain politically when he’s in the White House?
That’s easy: Individuals.
I wish that folks making insinuations about this sort of thing would post information to back up their claims. Voters have a responsibility to research their way through the spin and propaganda before coming to a decision about who to support and why. If you post your sources, it makes it easier for those of us who want to research them to decide whether we are as willing as you to be persuaded by them.
FWIW, I also believe that Hillary is the best choice for the nominee. That said, I don’t think Obama is a bad choice, he just isn’t my first. Biden would have been good too but don’t get me started.
Betty Givens: It was Obama was that is the lead offender, calling Hillary Annie Oakley in the duck blind, thereby giving every man in America permission to show sexism against his opponent!
Could you elaborate on that a bit? I’m trying to understand how that is sexist. I saw it more as though he were mocking Hillary for assuming a personae that appeared to be at odds with her voting record on firearms issues.
Mocking your opponent is pretty common in politics. Hillary uses the tactic herself, you know, “the sky will open up, and the light come down…” The problem with mocking your opponent, especially during the primaries, is that it’s a divisive tactic. You aren’t just mocking the candidate, you’re mocking everyone who identifies with them. In the end, it just makes it that much harder to unify the people behind the nominee.
I’m sorry, Betty, but you’re going to have to explain this to me. When Clinton claims to have been hunting – that’s a funny image to me. Not because she’s a woman. Because I can’t picture her hunting (much less being a crack shot, as her story implied). So Obama’s quip came across as funny to me. It is possible she’s telling the truth? Sure – but it’s not like she hasn’t embellished before (see: sniper fire, Bosnia).
Besides, Annie Oakley is a fine feminist. She was a terrific shooter, and was pushing for integration of women into combat roles in the US military as early as 1898!
Finally, I found Mitt Romney’s tales of hunting prowess equally incredible – and would have found a semantically identical joke about it equally amusing.
Only if you dismiss someone because they are a woman.
Obama is more attractive to me as a candidate largely because of Clinton’s continued triangulation on Iraq (we all know what the AUMF was – quit trying to tell us it was something different, Senator Clinton. Just admit you made a mistake, already!), and her campaign’s increasing willingness to push the “Southern Strategy” buttons as she becomes increasingly desperate.
And to think that when this campaign started, I was pretty excited about both of these candidates (tho slightly favoring Obama because of the Iraq triangulations). Clinton’s campaigning is what has soured me on her. What a shame. That said, about the only thing that could happen that would make me decide to “take my ball and go home” would be a “brokered nomination”, because nothing says “contempt for democracy” quite like ignoring the results of the elections. The blame for setting up a system that allows this insanity falls squarely on the party – you could lose the pledged delegates by 30 points and still earn the nomination – but the blame for taking advantage of that system, even if it’s within the totally FUBAR rules, would fall squarely on Clinton should this situation come to pass.
If Clinton had managed to beat Obama in the primaries, and win the nomination without any backroom shenanigans, I might not have been pleased about the judgment of my fellow liberals, but I also wouldn’t be threatening to do the insane and vote for McCain. Which is exactly what CSCT is threatening. You folks are nuts.
Again, a year ago I was pretty much equally excited about the prospects of an Obama presidency or a H. Clinton presidency. It’s the actions of the Clinton campaign that has changed that, not anything Obama’s campaign or the media has said.
I understand exactly what Betty is saying and I see it the same way. She phrased it well. I always have a hard time conveying those thoughts in words, and she did a good job. The only thing that I think will work to get people like Brian and P. Springer to see what women are talking about when we identify the sexism prevalent in the Obama campaign and in the media is to have them sit through women’s studies 101.
Sexism is so deeply ingrained in the majority of cultures of the world it’s really hard for people to see it.
You all, the fact that Hillary wears make up, and has a coiffed hair due is a huge sign that we live in a sexist society. How many jokes have you heard about her wearing pant suits? Ever hear jokes about Obama wearing pant suits? How far do you think she would have gotten if she cut her hair as short as Obama’s and wore no make up? Remember Janet Reno, and all the times she was called a man, and made fun of because she didn’t fit the image of what a woman should look like?
I remember a saying I heard back in college when I took a women’s studies class. Something to the effect of: We’ll know we’re living a society where sexism no longer exists when a less qualified woman gets elected into important leadership positions over a more qualified man. Why? Because right now, it happens all the time the other way around. It’s happening with Obama. He is less qualified then Hillary and the DNC and MSM think that that’s okay. And if you think Obama is equally or more qualified than Hillary, meaning, he has more experience in national politics, you are simply in denial. And if you think that what we need as a leader of this country is someone who is outside of politics, or inexperienced in politics, because politics needs to be changed, then in my opinion, you are wrong.
Would you hire an administrative assistant to be CEO of a company, because you are unhappy with the current leadership and you think it’s corrupt?
You wouldn’t because it would be too high of a risk to take, with thousands of jobs and millions of money on the line. If you heard that Google, Inc. did that you would probably take your investment right out of that company.
Brian, you say: ” her campaign’s increasing willingness to push the “Southern Strategy” buttons as she becomes increasingly desperate.” I have a question for you: If you were ahead of a less qualified opponent in the number of people that voted for you, would you just pack up and go home? Be honest with yourself.
I don’t know what you mean when you say: Southern Strategy. What is wrong with a candidate appealing in particular to any group of people? This is what politicians do. Now she’s not allowed to bring her message and her campaign to the southerners because there’s something wrong with the “South?” What’s wrong with the South, Brian? What’s wrong with having a strategy to get votes in the South? Go ahead, explain yourself.
And calling a woman who is fighting to win a contest and is staying in it till the end, “increasingly desperate” comes across as incredibly sexist, FYI. She is winning the popular vote. He hasn’t won anything yet. And he has no chance of winning anything until the convention when the superdelegates vote. So, in fact she is not desperate. I think people who support Obama and call his opponent names, they are desperate.
Brian, you also say about Hillary: “nothing says “contempt for democracy” quite like ignoring the results of the elections. I agree with you, except that you are referring to the wrong person. The only guy ignoring elections is Obama. The only elections that have been ignored so far are the Florida and Michigan elections. Nothing says “contempt for democracy” to me like a candidate and a party that is trying to push a candidate by limiting the primary election to 48 states. Who was ignoring an election in MI? Could it have been the one taking his name off the ballot? If that is not ignorance, I don’t know what is.
Finally, you also say: “If Clinton had managed to beat Obama in the primaries”.
She did beat him in the primaries. She’s ahead in the popular vote. And the only reason he’s ahead in delegate count is not because of won primaries, but because of won caucuses: Flawed election systems that under-represent certain segments of the population who are less likely to participate in this kind of public and routy way of electing a person: the elderly, oppressed women and immigrants, and blue collar workers who are more likely to work weekends and evenings and can’t be there for the duration of a caucus.
Hillary is the best candidate, and she is ahead in the popular vote. The public has chosen her over Obama. Whether the democrats in charge can come to terms with that and acknowledge the will of the people is a separate issue.
My comments were scoped to the Annie Oakley in the duck blind reference, not to the media. I’m well aware of their sexist behavior. Can you help me to understand why you feel the Annie Oakley thing was sexist?
Frankly, they are both pretty inexperienced. If experience were what people cared about most then Biden would be the nominee. In any case, having experience doesn’t guarantee that someone will be a good president any more than being inexperienced guarantees that someone will be a bad one.
Interesting read:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1717926,00.html
Hillary and Obama are really not that far apart experience-wise. While I personally prefer Hillary, it’s not because of her experience, it’s because she’s a truly gifted policy wonk. I think the Obama folks would point out that, despite his inexperience, he has been able to mount a pretty impressive campaign. If he hadn’t, Hillary would have annihilated him. She would have annihilated him anyway if it hadn’t been for that complete waste of oxygen, Mark Penn. …but I digress.
It’s certainly critical, possibly even insulting, but why is it sexist? In order to be sexist, doesn’t there need to be some suggestion or implication that the insult is related to the sex of the insultee?
I agree with you that she is the best candidate but I think you’re being intellectually dishonest here about the popular vote. How are you deriving your totals? Are you ignoring caucus states? Is Hillary getting all the votes she got in Michigan while Obama gets none due to the fact his name wasn’t on the ballot? Irrespective of your answers to these questions, the popular vote doesn’t decide who gets the nomination, the delegates do. The rules may be bad rules (and they are) but they are the rules that everyone agreed to beforehand.
P.,
I don’t play games. When I say she is winning the popular vote, I mean exactly what that says. Contrary to MSM belief, the Hillary campaign and her supporters are not “INVENTING” new math. She is winning in the number of people who chose her when she was on the ballot.
Here are the numbers from Real Clear Politics Website:
Popular Vote
(w/FL & MI)
Clinton:
17,420,923 47.9% +168,363 +0.46%
Obama:
17,252,560 47.5%
Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA
Clinton:
17,644,785 47.7% +58,141 +0.15%
Obama
17,586,644 47.6%
So now, can you please apologize for calling me a liar? Oh, never mind, I’m used to it, I don’t care anymore.
By the way, it’s not Hillary’s problem or the voters’ problem or our democratic country’s problem that Obama foolishly chose to take his name off the MI ballot. No one asked him to do that, and no one should be punished for a decision he made except for him. I don’t believe in giving preferential treatment to a white man, a white woman or a biracial man.
If my answers are not important don’t ask the questions and waste my time. The rules, the rules, the rules. What’s more important, real democracy in which all citizens who vote have their vote counted or “the rules of the Democratic National Committee?” What’s more important, our constitution or the DNC’s “rules”. “The rules” is an argument to be made when you have no argument.
She is ahead, and she will add to her winning margin in the next three primaries. And the delegates may decide the outcome, but if they decide to go against the popular vote winner, they will not get away with it.
Obama loses at the DNC convention or he loses 3 months later.
Well, it’s been nice having my comments not be censored here. Thanks Jill. It’s time for me to go. The conversation going on here is not doing it for me. No one has tried to convince me why I should vote for Obama, no real arguments made for him, only against her, so I”m kinda getting bored and tired with this unproductive back and forth.
If anyone is interested, here’s a good blog about Unity vs. Legitimacy:
http://anglachelg.blogspot.com/2008/05/legitimacy-not-unity.html
And for the record, if Hillary does not win nomination, you can add my vote to McCain’s column, for reasons I”ve gone into depth towards the top of this blog post.
Go Hilary! You’re the best, you’re my hero.
Great – we live in a sexist society. Tell me something I didn’t already know.
Who are you to define “qualified” as “more experience in national politics”? If that’s the only metric, then McCain is vastly “more qualified” than anybody else. What about years as an executive officer? Or years as an elected official? How do you quantify leadership? Or charisma (which does, in fact, matter)? How do you quantify experience gained in an office that has no official responsibility (ie, “First Lady”)?
“Qualified” is a hell of a lot more complicated than “years in the Senate”.
Only with some seriously convoluted and dishonest math.
Just more states, more delegates, and more votes. Even if she wins all 86 remaining pledged delegates, she’d still be behind by 72 pledged delegates.
Finally, you say something that is true. But the system was set up that way, with almost 600 “superdelegates” and a total count of 2026 to win the nomination, you’d have to win about 75% of the pledged delegates to make the superdelegates irrelevant. It’s a stupid system, and if the superdelegates decide to vote in a way different than the will of the voters (as demonstrated by the pledged delegate count), a lot of people are going to be upset. If the pledged delegate count favored Clinton, and the superdelegates nominated Obama, I’d be upset about that. You, OTOH, have made your position on this clear.
JesusMaryAndJoseph. I apologize for yelling, but this has been explained previously in this very thread, and a normal volume doesn’t appear loud enough to penetrate your skull – ALL THE CANDIDATES AGREED TO THE SANCTIONS AGAINST FL AND MI FOR MOVING THEIR PRIMARIES FORWARD, INCLUDING CLINTON. Now Clinton is trying to change the rules midstream. And despite being the only candidate on the ballot, she still only got 55% of the vote. The only reason she’s ahead in the popular vote if you count MI & FL is because MICHIGAN VOTERS DID NOT HAVE THE OPTION TO VOTE FOR OBAMA OR EDWARDS. In fact, if you count Florida Obama is still ahead in all categories.
Does it suck that MI & FL are unseated? Sure does. But Clinton didn’t object until well after the fact – she’s trying to declare aces wild after she’s been dealt her hand. She’s trying to change the rules mid-contest.
Another point where you are correct – Obama has performed better than Clinton in caucus states. But if you unseat all 12 (TWELVE!) states that have voted by way of caucus, Obama loses 128 more delegates than Clinton does… which is still less than the 158 delegate gap.
So she’s still be losing.
Your opinion. Untrue. Untrue.
Look, this is insanity. Joseph is right – I shouldn’t have wasted my time engaging you. Your mind is made up – “full speed ahead and damn the facts!”
Fixed your post, Anne-Marie.
Sure we have. You just don’t care. Just for completeness, I’ll throw a very important one at you again – Supreme Court nominations. Stevens will almost certainly be replaced during the next 4 years, and Ginsburg very likely so as well.
Hey folks…
There is no real way to come up with REAL numbers for ANY of the caucuses.
Second…
I asked this yesterday.
What do you want a president to FIX in this country and what is it about being a DEMOCRAT that is different from being a REPUBLICAN?
Maybe this is just a place to vent and place blame on each candidate.
I really think we need to figure out who is going to get us out of the slide we are on!
McCain didn’t even vote for the GI Bill that was passed by the Senate today! He was a POW and now he doesn’t think the vets should get an increase in their benefits???
Something is not adding up with his rhetoric. I thought he was pretty cool back in 2000. Now he has lobbyist running his campaign, after all of us talk about campaign reform and he doesn’t back the bill supported even by Republicans to help our veterans.
Think long and very hard before you cut off your nose to spite your healthcare, gas and food prices and anything else on the Democratic agenda you want passed.
Here is the page you were referring to:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html
The ‘**’ next to the total refers to a footnote at the bottom of the page which says: “**(Senator Obama was not on the Michigan Ballot and thus received zero votes. Uncommitted was on the ballot and received 238,168 votes as compared to 328,309 for Senator Clinton.)”
In order to believe that the totals you listed were correct, you must believe that Obama would receive no votes in Michigan.
Edwards, Richardson and Biden also removed their names. If they did anything foolish it was to believe that everyone would play by the rules they’d all agreed to. Hillary’s exact words, regarding the Michigan were “It’s clear, this election they’re having is not going to count for anything”
More info:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/11/AR2007101100859_pf.html
[...] an unprecedented amount of back and forth about Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton and John McCain, here, here and here. I’ve written before about how neither Obama or Clinton satisfy me and [...]
I bet all these Obama haters are just Republicans. I can’t believe lefty women would be this stupid. Obama has not said one sexist thing about Senator Clinton, and has praised her many times. To be against Obama because of media bias is stupid, and I don’t think women are stupid.
Marc,
I am beginning to believe some women (and many Americans) are not too smart. We are not thinking about the bigger issues. Forget barack Obama! What about the bigger agenda…
It’s funny to me how none of the women who write in are willing to respond to my questions about what they want a president to do about the bigger problems and what does it mean to be a Democrat or a Republican?
What’s our agenda?
Jan – I did respond a bit to one of your direct questions re: what do I want – what do I see as the top priorities. I agree with your approach that we need to define the common issues and identify who has a plan that we can accept to deal with those issues. But you know – I thought Biden did, and Dodd and Richardson, but not enough other people did.
That’s our system and that’s how we get to where we are today, for better or worse.
So – you and I at least discussed what our agenda is – but I didn’t really set up the title or the content of this particular post to discuss agenda stuff – best for another post.
How about YOU start a blog for that?
The group that Ed Hale is promoting in his posts is a counterfeit website. See this link:
http://www.hillaryis44.org/?page_id=623
Give them your email at your own risk.
Jay: [edited for personal attack] you are a[sic] Obama supporter. It was this website that got and send out to all of you, the names, email address and phone numbers of the DNC rules Committee. We have also obtained the email address of all of the super delegates who are uncommitted. Now tell me what your organization has done beside organize a bus trip to DC on the 31st. Who do you think will have a greater impact on the super delegates – you and your few people standing accross the street when the members arrive or the millions of email they have got from real live people.
[edited out for personal attack] Jay, we are taking back this country.
Folks, [edited out for peronal attack] These people who claim to be Clinton Supporters Count too are nothing but Obama supporters, out to derail this cause. They claim that they have 1000’s of member, but I have yet to hear them contact any of these so called member. I am on their mailing list and I have recieved not emails from them. They use every dirty trick they can.
Now you tell me who is the fake and fraud?
Check out our web site, http://www.hcsct.com – Thanks Ed Hale
WLST readers: I have no idea who Jay M or Ed Hale are but I’ve sent them emails with the advice that they either keep their personal attacks offline and/or at someone else’s blog, or the comments will be edited and/or deleted.