25 Responses to “Teacher uses tossing kid out of class as way to teach tallies?”

1. 1 Joseph on May 26th, 2008 5:05 pm

   Without know the complete details, it sounds like the teacher probably shouldn’t have asked the other students to ridicule the kid in public.

   Then again, I don’t know what kind of “disciplinary issues” the kid has.

   There are 16 other kids in that classroom that DO want to learn and it sounds like the teacher was trying teach the misbehaving kid a lesson: that he was pissing off everyone else in the room, not just her.

   For some kids, peer pressure can be a much more powerful motivator than the words of an authority figure like a teacher.

2. 2 Renee on May 26th, 2008 6:31 pm

   Thanks for posting. I’ve added a few links to my post. Click my name for a really good post on the issue.

   This hits really close to home for me. We’ve got stuff going on currently with our 14 year old and his school that I won’t go into. But I was definitely nodding in agreement with the part where the author mentioned teachers (and school systems) preferring to “make it up as they go along” to being bound by a plan.

   Son only has another couple weeks at his current school. Somehow we’ll all survive. And once it’s over, letters will be written.

3. 3 Jill Miller Zimon on May 26th, 2008 6:43 pm

   Renee – I was part of a group for eight years that served as a parent network for families with kids who had special ed, gifted and dual education needs. I know that a few districts around me have them too, and I did a bunch of ed law when I was at a children and family mental health agency. Sounds like you have every thing in hand, but if you need an ear or shoulder or more brainstorming please don’t hesitate to email me. I’d be happy to help. I also know an outstanding special ed lawyer who has basically done all the work as a non-profit for the last 15 years or so. She is a great person and her son has Aspergers – he’s now a sophomore or junior at Rochester Institute of Technology – a very cool kid.

   Anyway – my thoughts are with you. There are many teachers who don’t have a clue about what a differentiated classroom requires and if the administrators don’t either, it guarantees a mess.

4. 4 Bad American on May 26th, 2008 8:02 pm

   I could scream. The child has aspergers/autism. My son is autistic. I’m forever grateful that nothing like this ever happened to my son or there would be a teacher stuffed headfirst into a dumpster. And probably a principal too.

   No excuse for this. And I thought the Notre Dame nuns I had were masters at ritual public humiliation. This takes the cake.

5. 5 Joseph on May 26th, 2008 9:16 pm

   I didn’t catch the part about the kid being “in the process of being diagnosed with Asperger’s syndrome”.

   Sorry.

   The second article is much more detailed.

   Guess the teacher needs a little more training.

6. 6 Chuck Butcher on May 27th, 2008 3:38 am

   From what I can get from the three articles I don’t understand what the teacher did, but, and this is kind of large:

   The boy had a history of disciplinary problems at his previous school and at this school. They were “in the process”. There was no detail whatever of the disciplinary problems. There is a whole lot of information missing. Another good question is why was this child in this classroom? How severe is his disability?

   There is something about this story that doesn’t make sense. Sometimes things I read make me uncomfortable and later I find there was more to it. Peer pressure is a very powerful thing, good and ill. I’m curious how this plays out.

7. 7 Oengus on May 27th, 2008 3:39 am

   Aspergers syndrome is unlike typical autism, they are like little sociopaths, and they require constant behavior modification.

   Aspergers are not typified with a lack of cognitive abilities, but a lack of acknowledgement of others. They also ritualize and can have a narrow focus, fumble around and are clumsy.

   Aspergers are not quite isolated introverts; they are often relentless and verbose, repeating the same things. The lesson needed to be followed though with; he needs to be constantly reminded of the cause and the effect. He will tantrum when contradicted.

8. 8 Daniella on May 27th, 2008 5:51 am

   This is so sad in a way, I can understand the frustration that comes with having a child disrupting time and time again the class. But I don’t like involving six years old in voting another child out. That leads to teaching children that it is “ok” to gang up on someone who is different.

   However teachers are not psychologists, their job is to teach. The decision to ban a student from class should be made by an adult.

   I had a teacher once told me: “I don’t think your son is as smart as you think he is.” That teacher only showed her bias and ineptitude in my book. I did not pull my bright 7 years old out of that class. We all have to live with other people’s stupidity. My son did very well in spite of this and he learned to appreciate other good teachers that crossed his path.

9. 9 Jill Miller Zimon on May 27th, 2008 10:00 am

   All interesting comments and I agree, there obviously is a lot of information we don’t have.

   However, based on my experience, I feel quite confident in saying that differentiation in a classroom is not well-understood by all teachers, administrators or parents for that matter. And with the mainstreaming of inclusion, the classroom cannot treat all children the same.

   The fact that this child was known to have issues for what sounds as though a long period of time and there was no IEP in place makes me very curious – what kind of Kindergarten assessment was performed that didn’t get that IEP in place at the beginning of the school year?

   I don’t expect that I’d approve of the teacher’s tactic under any circumstances, but at this point, it sounds as though the district was not on top of this child’s needs.

   I could be wrong – hopefully more information will be forthcoming.

10. 10 Bad American on May 27th, 2008 11:34 am

    Oh yeah, we’re talking American society here, I forgot. “Little sociopaths” Yeah, right. Forgive me if I see a five year old child in all of this who has been subjected to social savagery masquerading as education.

    I’m sure there will come a day when little boys with problems like this that society hasn’t the time, patience or god-blessed-money to deal with, will have their problems and conditions diagnosed in utero and then they can be culled so the “normal” kids and “normal” polite society will not have to take the time and god-blessed-money to deal with them.

    I really hate my society, American society. Hey, take a look at the picture of the little boy in that story. Isn’t he just a little cute boy? Nah, he’s a budding sociopath. Cull the freakin’ herd. Or isolate him until he’s 17 and then he can be put somewhere where he can be of use to American society – the military. We need to cultivate our killing machines carefully. Sociopaths apply! NOW America needs you.

    Sigh.

    I’m tired. Just tired of it all. What the hell kind of people are we anyway?

11. 11 Jill Miller Zimon on May 27th, 2008 11:44 am

    Bad American – I will chime in with you on that re: Oengus suggesting sociopath.

    To the best of my knowledge, Oengus, autism does not have any direct correlation to sociopathology at all – why are you suggesting that?

    Sociopathology has to do with no superego, no conscience – that is not a trait commonly attributed to people with diagnoses along the autism spectrum.

    What exactly are you thinking about?

12. 12 BWM on May 27th, 2008 12:38 pm

    Re: Asperger’s = Sociopath…

    Not true at all. Asperger’s is merely a degree of Autism, similar to Fragile-X syndrome and other comparable diseases – called an Autism Spectrum Disorder. It’s characterized by certain kinds of behavior which includes a lack of social skills, but in no way are children (or adults) with Asperger’s “little sociopaths.”

    In fact, Asperger’s is considered to be a high-functioning form of autism, and can often be controlled with counseling and/or medication (for emotional disorder, not the actual cause of the disease).

    Finally, no two cases are exactly the same, so a general statement like that is not useful – while there might be some “little sociopathS”, there are many who are not even close.

13. 13 Oengus on May 27th, 2008 6:42 pm

    Sociopathy is a loosely-defined term that may be used to refer to:
    · Psychopathy
    · Antisocial personality disorder
    · Dissocial personality disorder

    American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual: “The essential feature for the diagnosis is a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood.”

    Asperger syndrome (AS), one of the autistic spectrum disorders, is a pervasive developmental disorder characterized by an inability to understand how to interact socially. Children with Asperger’s syndrome typically develop a good to excellent vocabulary, although they usually lack the social instincts and practical skills needed when relating to others. They may not recognize verbal and nonverbal cues or understand social norms, such as taking turns talking or grasping the concept of personal space. They may have difficulties with accent, tone, and pitch, which can make their speech sometimes odd or difficult to understand. And they may have difficulty expressing their own feelings and perceiving others’ feelings. Children with Asperger’s typically make efforts to establish friendships, but they may have difficulty making friends because of their social awkwardness.

14. 14 Jill Miller Zimon on May 27th, 2008 6:51 pm

    Oengus, they are not the same thing. They are not causally connected in any way and I would seriously ask you to reconsider your assertion that they are connected.

    You are making a mistake many people make re: anti-social versus being socially awkward. They are absolutely not the same thing.

15. 15 Cheri on May 27th, 2008 7:44 pm

    Oengus, my credentials are as a almost-special education teacher who also worked in direct care with developmentally disabled teenagers & young adults, a few of whom were also dual-diagnosed with severe mental illness. I have also worked with adolescents with varying degrees of learning disabilities.

    During my student-teaching days, I briefly worked with a 17-year-old diagnosed (correctly, I believe) as having a sociopathic personality disorder.

    Individuals with this personality disorder have the ability to draw people in with their charm & often superior social skills. Once they’ve done that, they can & have committed heinous crimes without the least regard for their victim. If they hurt someone, they truly do not care. Their sense of right & wrong is completely absent.

    Students with Asperger’s syndrome are not anti-social, but have poorly developed social skills. Students with sociopathic disorder (who are thankfully, for society’s sake, fairly rare) have all-too-well-developed social skills, which are not generally used for good.

    All that being said, the teacher was poorly trained & supremely insensitive to boot. This wasn’t an episode of Survivor, it was a kindergarten classroom. I believe she deserves a long, long timeout from her classroom.

16. 16 Oengus on May 27th, 2008 7:46 pm

    When Alex’s mother took him home, she said he kept going around the home saying, “I am not special”, while she was doing what, on the phone calling the police, an attorney and the newspapers. What you can not do is demand people act a certain way in certain situations, however how many times did she tell the story, how many times did she say he was a “special child”?

    The correct socially acceptable behavior, saying I am sorry my child disrupted the class, I am having trouble with him I believe he may need special education. It is not calling the police…. HELLO, that is irrational, and disruptive to the child compounding the problem.

    The acorn never falls to far from the tree does it, maybe the child has Asperger Syndrome, these events are all part of the diagnosis the path to special education, it takes some time to figure it out, if Alex was taken back in class and then acclimated even after his experience with ridicule, then what would be the conclusion, a spoiled brat, then who would we blame.

17. 17 Jill Miller Zimon on May 27th, 2008 7:49 pm

    Oengus, there are many topics that you’ve commented on over the months here, and many of them you’ve known a lot more about than I have.

    But this is one area – both in terms of the clinical piece and the education piece – that I really have to assert that I feel you do not have a good grasp of what you’re suggesting.

    Do you have direct experience with any of this? Because I have both direct experience with it and an educational background in it. I’m saying again, the connections you are making are not valid – based on my knowledge and experience.

    Why are you so committed to making the connections you are pushing?

18. 18 Oengus on May 27th, 2008 9:11 pm

    They do not define Aspergers Syndrome with sociopath disorders, however the word sociopath is a general word to describe anti-social behavior. The definition of the word sociopathic is of or relating to asocial or antisocial behavior or exhibiting antisocial personality disorder. Asocial is not social or lacking the capacity to be social.

    I take it back, the word has social stigma, and I apologize for using it loosely. The difference between “or” and “and” take it up with Webster’s.

    What really kills me is that parent disregard that a disorder is neurological, the behavior is not entirely manageable and certainly not entirely reversible. Then it gets into isn’t their a pill they can take, heaven forbid it is just a phase he is only five! Hurry up and get them into special education, then complain that they are not making them just like everybody else.

    Is publicly ridiculing the teacher, to teach her a lesson? Is calling the police to teach her a lesson?

    It all gets back to play nice right, Alex is said to be high functioning; he is still formative, is he learning from this?

    I never said that Aspergers is a Sociopathic Disorder did I, loosely used the word sociopath I did not feel corrected when I looked it up in the dictionary.

    Read this…

    http://www.medhelp.org/posts/show/409822

19. 19 Jill Miller Zimon on May 27th, 2008 9:55 pm

    Oengus, there’s a reason why, when doctors and other experts are questioned during a trial, if they’ve never met the particular client (defendant or plaintiff) involved, they always couch things in terms of hypotheticals: because each case is different.

    The incidence/occurance of certain traits in any one individual is something that should be judged and diagnosed on a case by case basis.

    I am being assertive here on this point because I believe that to not be clear about that, esp. in the case of autism – which is a very mysterious thing still to many even though we hear about the incidence rate as increasing dramatically over the last 10-20 years – would unnecessarily be pre-judging and making general statements that I know from experience are not true.

    No – none of my kids have anything on the autism spectrum. But I’ve worked with families who have kids on the spectrum, I’ve been on the board of a parenting network for kids and families with special ed and gifted ed needs and I know attorneys and mental health professionals as well as friends who have children with such diagnoses.

    I also worked in juvenile court’s diagnostic clinic for a year as my field placement in social work school and had the opportunity to meet kids with anti-social traits.

    So, again, I’m just going to stand firm on this. I do not share your perspective and I would not ascribe to your descriptions.

    It’s just far more complex than I feel you’re describing.

20. 20 Oengus on May 28th, 2008 3:14 am

    http://qk.100kang.com/sjjs/mgjsbxyflxb/20060903/200706111308083071.htm

21. 21 BWM on May 28th, 2008 7:50 am

    Sociopath is not a word to be used lightly. The connotations ascribed to it are far too important to ignore.

    As for the parents, what are you suggesting they do? Abandon their kid to whatever the world has in store for them and others with their problem(s)? Simply say, “You know what, I don’t care. We should just let things take care of themselves. He has to learn on his own, and in no way should we be part of that process.”

    That won’t work. I don’t have an extensive background like some of the people here, but I think it should be obvious that, especially in the cases of children as young as the boy in this incident, you can’t just stand by and let these things happen. I’m not suggesting that things be taken to any sort of extreme, only that it’s not a good idea to write the case off as ’someone who is mentally damaged and can’t be helped’ and let this stuff continue.

    As for weather or not he’s learning from this stuff, he may not fully understand what’s going on. When you were 5, how much of the events of the world – even if they concerned you – did you grasp? Do you even remember what life was like when you were 5?

    It’s certain that this will have some effect on him, but in that regard the damage will have already been done (by the teacher and the students, not the parents) and I think it’s better that his parents are willing to do something.

22. 22 Oengus on May 31st, 2008 12:46 am

    I give credit for a five year old having some cognitive skills and they are in constant state of learning, I still have memories from kindergarten, Julie a pretty little blonde I felt compelled to walk home every day, the neighbor telling me on picture day I looked like I was going to be someone some day. A tweed suite and horn rimmed glasses, and a leather portfolio, my mother saying “ oh honey he does not need that” My father loved to dress us up for special occasions, we were all labeled the best dressed.

    Alex is considered Aspergers and it is not so much of a disability it is more of a difference, which includes cognitive skills he understands. He ate his homework and then was told that it was disgusting, he likes to hum and was told that it is annoying.

    The teacher did not know that Alex feels compelled to hum and like any child, he reacts adversely when his compulsions are contradicted.

    Asperger have to be taught cause and effect, and they have trouble understanding why just like any child.

    The object is to acclimate the child to society, and with Autism not all can be, half of them are institutionalized as adults.

    Aspergers and HFA are not, unless they get fully isolated from society, if they are tormented and ridiculed they may end up climbing the tower at Virginia tech and shooting people they do not even know.

    What I noticed with Alex is when they filmed him was he was not oblivious to the cameras, nor was his mother.

    Its not just Asperger since most make it a further than 5 before being diagnosed, it also the underling personality as well and in this instance the teacher failed because it has been pretty well publicized that she never took the time to research his condition. On the other hand, maybe she did and misinterpreted it as to make him aware and accountable, which is actually what he requires just not so drastically. Difficult because telling an Aspersger not to hum is like taking the sucker out of any kids mouth and then telling them it is wrong and then punishing them until they realize it. The problem is that the tantrums and the frequency of being reprehended for things they feel compelled to do.

    In severe Autism they may stare at a clock all day, if you take the clock away they tantrum, they cannot be taught they lack the cognitive and communication skills. AS and HFA can be taught, they can understand the difference, its that you have to define the compulsions and deal with them accordingly. If it progresses to stepping on the cat then you have a real problem, if they like to count then get them a tutor they could be the next Einstein.

    I have trouble with it being all lumped together, but it is neurological and could be a shift in development, one part wanes and the other accelerates. They require monitoring and defining, and people really need to check their diets, because the numbers are growing.

    I do not lack empathy and or compassion; I do however lack composition skill, not comprehension though I understood the postings.

23. 23 Jill Miller Zimon on May 31st, 2008 3:37 pm

    Oengus – I appreciate the time and care you are taking particularly in this last comment.

    But let me say that I disagree with this: “The object is to acclimate the child to society, and with Autism not all can be, half of them are institutionalized as adults.”

    Actually, when it comes to public education, I believe the goal is, under the law, for all kids, to be able to provide a free and appropriate education within the least restrictive environments. The idea of getting them acclimated to society – that’s subtle and secondary if at all. I think that’s old school – do you believe that that’s still part of the system? I am under the impression that it isn’t – but I may be wrong.

24. 24 Oengus on June 1st, 2008 10:45 am

    Acclimating these children to society is the goal and quite a bit of funds spent on it. In the past, as a society we institutionalized the handicapped.

    Aspergers is a difference and typically do not even enter the special education process most times they just follow the same path as the rest of us.

    Our society is so compassionate compared to that of the past; most funds are spent on maintaining many people outside of institutions or education of others in special defined programs.

    If a person is considered to be reasonably able to function then they are often placed in independent living situations and then kept track of with regular visits it is believed that matriculating in society is best apposed to being institutionalized. Most often, they stay home with their parents or family and often the words “it is to much for me” is said. The county addresses it through the board of mental retardation. They spend what about 22K per each per year to sustain and or support them?

    That’s not special education which is a part of the school districts program, children with learning problems the children with mental retardation are not addressed in public schools. Each district spends money on special education, they are responsible to identify these children and their needs. They are typically leaning disabled or developmentally handicapped and some have autism spectrum disorders. That also gets more funds per student then the standard education process, many district have to abide by State requirement to do so, what you are saying is correct, that is the law, give them what they need.

    Whether a child with Aspergers needs special education or not is a judgment call, they are different but sometimes it is better for them not to be separated, depends on the child and the extent of their functionality.

    With Alex he needs to be taught how his actions are interpreted by others and eventually he will learn to control himself. He will not be eating his homework in high school or humming during exams either. His class mates will still interpret these actions as disgusting and annoying even then, it is all about acclimating to social norms.

    Apsergers are at about 35 in 10,000 a best guess, so they have to adjust more than society has to adjust to them, logic would say. Different is ok, I personally like different as long as it is not a propensity to be mean or hurtful.

    You are also very correct about the diagnosis of a sociopath, many states have laws that restrict a clinician from that until the individual is an adult, that has allot to do with formation and maturing through adolescence and into adulthood. It is also not wise to use the word in a society that has tendency to make every thing black or white.

    You can temper me as you do, that being disagreeing or even offer the occasional complement I am always in learning mode. I stand outside of the mob just watching, and sometimes I rattle the cage, attempting perhaps to inspire some critical analysis. The light are always on and the wheels are always spinning.

25. 25 Maddy on June 10th, 2008 12:56 pm

    A sad state of affairs indeed.
    Best wishes

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